Stockli Ski Tune

[James]

The “monkeys” just operate the machines, they usually only have access to Easy Mode, you need a password to access Professional Mode where changes to the programs can be made. T

These are small shops with access to whatever they want. Possibly the issue is incorrect pressure curve. It's just anazing there's no feedback to the machine on the base flatness. These things could output potato chips.

It's a disaster by the manufacturers that there's this much problem.

 

[Wilhelmson]

So now we're at the point where the manufacturers can't provide new skis with proper bases and edges, and many shops can't provide a flat base and proper edges.

 

[James]

So now we're at the point where the manufacturers can't provide new skis with proper bases and edges, and many shops can't provide a flat base and proper edges.

Just waking up?

 

[Wilhelmson]

I

Just waking up?

I'm not super picky but at least around here we have Ski MD who charges $95 for Factory Fresh Finish, no pun intended. Maybe a list of similar shops would be helpful, without turning it into a cluster.

 

[James]

I


I'm not super picky but at least around here we have Ski MD who charges $95 for Factory Fresh Finish, no pun intended. Maybe a list of similar shops would be helpful, without turning it into a cluster.

Yeah you're lucky. While I think his removal of bindings and plates is insane, you get a good grind. The only other one that was completely reliable, Edgewise in Stowe ceased business a couple years ago. I never had a bad grind, and that's at least two dozen with family. But part of the reason he got out of the business was keeping help and he simply didn't want to be there all the time.
The insane thing is all this automation has not improved things one bit. There's no feedback loop in the machine for flat.

 

[Jerez]

My AXs had a horrible tune direct.from Stockli. Huge hanging burrs and needed to be ground. Had to have them retuned twice. I am kinda picky but not like racer picky. Def. Get them at least looked at by a shop you trust. Or you can ski them and see if they feel wrong....

 

[David]

I


I'm not super picky but at least around here we have Ski MD who charges $95 for Factory Fresh Finish, no pun intended. Maybe a list of similar shops would be helpful, without turning it into a cluster.

I definitely don't want a factory tune even if it was perfect. I'll stick with Norm's perfect hand tune in Greenville, MI.

 

[ScottB]

While I think his removal of bindings and plates is insane, you get a good grind.
The insane thing is all this automation has not improved things one bit. There's no feedback loop in the machine for flat.

Mike told me he bought a new grinding machine a couple of years ago. He can do a 0.25 deg base bevel, and I can attest it came out perfect on my skis. I don't think he has to take off the bindings anymore with his new machine. I think it is the semi automated Winterstieger, he might have info on his website about it. I think he can do a ski much faster with the new machine.

 

[James]

I definitely don't want a factory tune even if it was perfect. I'll stick with Norm's perfect hand tune in Greenville, MI.

The only way to change base bevels, or to get your base flat, is with a stonegrind. You can grind flat than hand bevel the base edge.
(We could argue if you could do it with a laborious hand method using a Skivisions plane. Maybe.)
The upshot is, all he's changing is the side edge angle.

Mike told me he bought a new grinding machine a couple of years ago. He can do a 0.25 deg base bevel, and I can attest it came out perfect on my skis. I don't think he has to take off the bindings anymore with his new machine. I think it is the semi automated Winterstieger, he might have info on his website about it. I think he can do a ski much faster with the new machine.

Not listed on the site.

 

[David]

The only way to change base bevels, or to get your base flat, is with a stonegrind. You can grind flat than hand bevel the base edge.
(We could argue if you could do it with a laborious hand method using a Skivisions plane. Maybe.)
The upshot is, all he's changing is the side edge angle.


Not listed on the site.

He does a stonegrind but finishes by hand. I've had skis tuned by a lot of different shops in MI, WI, CO & WY but Norm's is by far superior to every other tune I've had.

 

[Sunnysloper]

The Idone says this about their skis in the FAQ’s:

“Any other unique features I should know about?

The Base of our skis are a highly engineered, specialized graphite material. You get a perfectly flat base and a micro precision finish. They are tough, fast, and durable. Our Technical Advisors will tell you to put a coat of wax on them at least once a season, but it is not required. Waxing is your choice. Our skis are ready to compete the day you receive them. You’ll notice the difference the first time you see them and put them to the test.”

Maybe they’re doing it right?

 

[David]

The Idone says this about their skis in the FAQ’s:

“Any other unique features I should know about?

The Base of our skis are a highly engineered, specialized graphite material. You get a perfectly flat base and a micro precision finish. They are tough, fast, and durable. Our Technical Advisors will tell you to put a coat of wax on them at least once a season, but it is not required. Waxing is your choice. Our skis are ready to compete the day you receive them. You’ll notice the difference the first time you see them and put them to the test.”

Maybe they’re doing it right?

Maybe the minute they leave the factory but but by the time they get to the consumer not so much.

 

[James]

The Idone says this about their skis in the FAQ’s:

“Any other unique features I should know about?

The Base of our skis are a highly engineered, specialized graphite material. You get a perfectly flat base and a micro precision finish. They are tough, fast, and durable. Our Technical Advisors will tell you to put a coat of wax on them at least once a season, but it is not required. Waxing is your choice. Our skis are ready to compete the day you receive them. You’ll notice the difference the first time you see them and put them to the test.”

Maybe they’re doing it right?

There's only so many producers of base material. Nothing that unusual unless that's written 30 yrs ago, but IDone didn't exist then.Any modern tuning machine with discs could claim micro finish.

Bumpers aren't exactly great on the tuning front.

 

[Swiss Toni]

These are small shops with access to whatever they want. Possibly the issue is incorrect pressure curve. It's just anazing there's no feedback to the machine on the base flatness. These things could output potato chips.

It's a disaster by the manufacturers that there's this much problem.

These are minimum wage jobs (around $11 an hour) no experience is required, because they are grinding machines there is some mandatory training, but that’s about it. Decathlon are hiring, if you could get a work permit you could give it a go https://joinus.decathlon.fr/fr/annonce/408396-skiman-technicien-ne-atelier-regional-hf-33610-cestas

Rental ski service is increasingly being carried out in centralized workshops, the skis are picked up in the evening and returned the next morning. Groupe Danisports, which rents skis under the Precision Ski and Ski Republic brands has a workshop in Bourg Saint Maurice that can service 80 pairs an hour. There’s no time to fiddle with the settings or check angles and flatness.

There are devices available that could check flatness on the machine, but as the bases are covered in cutting fluid some way of wiping it off would have found, probably not possible without stopping the machine.

So now we're at the point where the manufacturers can't provide new skis with proper bases and edges, and many shops can't provide a flat base and proper edges.

I don’t think edge angles and base flatness are measured at the factories, as far as I can see there is only a standard for geometry (ISO 7796:1985 Skis -- Geometry -- Measuring conditions)

VAP Gruber Automations GmbH, a Wintersteiger subsidiary has developed an automatic ski quality inspection system https://www.vap-automation.at/english/special/ski/ the German subtitles in the video state that in only carries out tensile, torque, 3D profile, parallelism and deflection tests, no mention of edge angles or base flatness.

The only shops that seem to measure anything are those that provide race ski tuning.

My AXs had a horrible tune direct.from Stockli. Huge hanging burrs and needed to be ground. Had to have them retuned twice. I am kinda picky but not like racer picky. Def. Get them at least looked at by a shop you trust. Or you can ski them and see if they feel wrong....

The side edge grinding unit on the old Montana Saphir used belts, the one on the new one uses grinding wheels, they are set at an angle to the edge and grind upwards so hanging burrs shouldn’t be a problem. In total Stöckli bought 11 new grinding machines when they re-equipped their grinding line.

Mike told me he bought a new grinding machine a couple of years ago. He can do a 0.25 deg base bevel, and I can attest it came out perfect on my skis. I don't think he has to take off the bindings anymore with his new machine. I think it is the semi automated Winterstieger, he might have info on his website about it. I think he can do a ski much faster with the new machine.

The SkiMD website shows a Trim Disc 71, it will do 0.75° / 1° / 1.5° / 2° base edge angles and 86° / 87.25° / 87.5° / 88° / 89° side edge angles. The top of the range Trimjet Racing won't do base angles of less than 0.3°.

 

[Paul Lutes]

Waxing not required ........ Imma say no.

 

[mdf]

86° / 87.25° / 87.5° / 88° / 89° side edge angles

Well heck, that obsoletes your 3 degree side edge guide....

 

[James]

There are devices available that could check flatness on the machine, but as the bases are covered in cutting fluid some way of wiping it off would have found, probably not possible without stop

They already use an automatic edge wiper afyer sharpening. Seems not that difficult to add one during tbe grinding process.

It's just amazing tbat we've gotten so far with this issue and it's seemingly not being addressed. Automation without feedback just means making more things poorly much quicker if it goes bad.

Knowledgeable people encounter it, and then those who don't know don't know. I had a discussion with a race parent last season where they were amazed their daughter liked the longer gs skis. She "couldn't turn" the shorter ones. Obviously it's the tune and I told him so, but he just shrugged and said his normal shop did them, which is a good shop, but clearly not that time.

I've had an MX 84 done by Ski Service in Verbier that was pretty bad. Horrible on ice, wouldn't slide sideways, felt incredibly heavy, catch and release. They have a machine in house, so I assume they do them there. No one is going to like that ski trying that one. Trying to tell them that - the usual glazed look. I doubt it led to anything.

 

[Swede]

Skis are rushed through production and somtimes ”change” afterwards. Worst case scenarios need grind. And each pair don’t get a lot of love in the factory, there’s simply no time. And there are no short cuts to a good tune. Either hand them to a shop that work with race teams and pay or get the gear and learn how to do it. You are allowed to drink whisky while tuning. My racers said that the edges got sharper with Tallisker.

 

[ski otter 2]

Most skis come out of the factory (or at least to the shop floor) ready to ski, and with a great tune. (So it must be possible to get this right, for most.) Maybe not the best tune that you or I would give it, but still, a swell tune. This is so almost dependably, with so many skis. And at these prices, with many people's limited leisure time, this is as it should be.

That said, even the brands with a great track record in this regard slip up now and then, sometimes horribly. (Sometimes lots of hours and elbow grease get expended on my part as a result to get it right, if ever.) Those who ski a lot and run on a lot of skis might tend to see such mess-ups more, with their own stuff and with others'.

Yes I can adapt and adjust, and end up with a great ski(s) myself. Nonetheless, it happens often enough that It must be bad for business, and bad for the long term prospects of the sport. I've run into folks that quit skiing over such a ski/boot acquisition, or got derailed from it for a time. (From their point of view, why not do something fun that works instead?). This has also been true of poor bootfitting/boot selection. It just makes sense to want the companies and tech folks to make this stuff happen a lot less, instead of many times a season hearing about and witnessing such misadventures. What a waste.

It's sort of why Toyotas, etc. have pretty much beat up on American cars for over a generation.

 

[LBK454]

Thanks to all those who replied. I wanted to follow up on this post to let everyone know what I found. I took the new Stockis to a ski tuner in Colorado and he showed me the both skis were edge high for most of their length. Had them tuned, waxed, and now ready to roll!