Pinkie Leads the Way (learning to ski on shaped skis)

[Zentune]

Spoiler alert: no matter what type of turn you make, you are using either foot-relative to leg rotation, leg-relative to foot rotation, or various combos of the 2 at some point(s) during your turn. It’s just in which direction, in relation to each other (leg/foot), said rotation is occurring and what type of muscular effort you are putting into it to manipulate this relationship. Unless the interface between your talus and calcaneous (stj) is abnormal/fused/imobilized.

zenny

 

[JESinstr]

@JESinstr, I like reading all your posts because they are so carvaholic. That said, it never escapes me that you are both literally and figuratively trapped in your own "circular" logic.

Ha! You have a point. I just figure folks should be able to get more out of that $1200 pair of skis than just going straight and bracing.

 

[Average Joe]

Spoiler alert: no matter what type of turn you make, you are using either foot-relative to leg rotation, leg-relative to foot rotation, or various combos of the 2 at some point(s) during your turn. It’s just in which direction, in relation to each other (leg/foot), said rotation is occurring. Unless the interface between your talus and calcaneous (stj) is abnormal/fused/imobilized.

zenny

Yep.
Femurs internally or externally rotate.
Ankles invert or evert.

 

[Doby Man]

@JESinstr, well ... there are at least a few things that can be said for going straight.

 

[markojp]

A brushed carve doesn't involve any rotary action. It simply requires less edge angle on the outside ski.

So do you ski perfectly square to the direction your skis travel at all times?

 

[markojp]

You're projecting your own mental picture of skiing onto one of the world's best demo skiers whose technique and abilities are beyond your ability to correctly MA. Your brain is deluding you into seeing "foot rotary" much as it misleads you into seeing other bizarre things that simply are not when in the presence of a gifted magician.

Oh boy....

 

[markojp]

Spoiler alert: no matter what type of turn you make, you are using either foot-relative to leg rotation, leg-relative to foot rotation, or various combos of the 2 at some point(s) during your turn. It’s just in which direction, in relation to each other (leg/foot), said rotation is occurring and what type of muscular effort you are putting into it to manipulate this relationship. Unless the interface between your talus and calcaneous (stj) is abnormal/fused/imobilized.

zenny

String-of-happy-explicatives-emoticon-thank-you!!!!!

 

[geepers]

Always been a bit puzzled by HH and enthusiasts insisting on no rotary...




Not sure if this vid already posted but feel it goes some way to explaining uses of the inside ski (or an inside pole drag for that matter).


Standing on pieces of paper or a rotating chair is easy enough to verify at home. Has anyone tried the exercise of holding a ski attached to some-one's foot and seeing what sort of effort is required to stop them rotating their ski? (My skis are waxed and stored atm so haven't done that bit yet.)

 

[James]

Always been a bit puzzled by HH and enthusiasts insisting on no rotary...




Not sure if this vid already posted but feel it goes some way to explaining uses of the inside ski (or an inside pole drag for that matter).


Standing on pieces of paper or a rotating chair is easy enough to verify at home. Has anyone tried the exercise of holding a ski attached to some-one's foot and seeing what sort of effort is required to stop them rotating their ski? (My skis are waxed and stored atm so haven't done that bit yet.)

Well...he did call him a magician.
We've argued this rotary topic for almost 20 yrs.

You had to post that vid of Diana demoing a blocking pole plant/release with anticipation. That's passive rotary. Though the plant is active.

How about this. If there's no friction under both your feet, you can't rotate them. So the theory goes. That doesn't mean standing on 2 lazy susans, because there's fore/aft friction. More like standing on wet ice.

 

[Average Joe]

Always been a bit puzzled by HH and enthusiasts insisting on no rotary...




Not sure if this vid already posted but feel it goes some way to explaining uses of the inside ski (or an inside pole drag for that matter).

The action/ reaction of femur rotation seems to be worthy of a separate discussion but since we're "waist deep" here.....
There has to be some hip/femur rotational movement in advanced ski turns, otherwise we'd be locked at the waist with no separation or opportunity to square our hips to the fall line/direction of travel.
The point at which we separate the direction of our hips from the direction of the skis, or vice versa, we've introduced rotary movement.
However, I think it's worth separating "good" rotary movements from "bad." I'll call "driving the knee" bad, as you can't bend the knee joint inside - you have to use rotation, and it's almost always used at the wrong time.....right about when we should be rolling our pinkie toe inside!

 

[geepers]

Well...he did call him a magician.
We've argued this rotary topic for almost 20 yrs.

You had to post that vid of Diana demoing a blocking pole plant/release with anticipation. That's passive rotary. Though the plant is active.

Came across a vid of HH himself doing similar rotary drills but was made maybe 8-10 years ago. I wondered if something had changed in that time but no, there's D doing the same drills 2015. There's a series of them including ones where she's mobile before and after the drill. Can see by the ski track there's some rotation going on.

The second vid is HH himself. Looks very like CSIA/PSIA intermediate parallels to my untrained eye.

How about this. If there's no friction under both your feet, you can't rotate them. So the theory goes. That doesn't mean standing on 2 lazy susans, because there's fore/aft friction. More like standing on wet ice.

Yeah, Fahey makes that point @19:21. I'll keep it in mind if I ever ski in space.

 

[Rod9301]

So do you ski perfectly square to the direction your skis travel at all times?

Sorry, don't understand what you're asking.

 

[markojp]

Sorry, don't understand what you're asking.

Your idea that no rotary occurs in carving. Maybe I mis-read?

 

[James]

Cue passive rotary and weather vane effect in 3, 2, 1...

 

[François Pugh]

I have no problem understanding what HH means when he says no rotary need be applied; he means you don't have to apply a rotary force through your boots to directly twist your skis, because your skis will twist as a result of snow-ski interaction.

I sometimes wonder if people who don't seem to understand are being deliberately obtuse, and obfuscating. I expect folk to easily understand what HH is saying, and not be confused and think he means that his feet don't rotate, or that his legs are not rotating in their hip sockets. Then again, I am an over-educated engineer with decades of experience in Newtonian physics. Maybe it's the Dunning Kruger effect.

Also, being able to ski without applied rotary does not mean you can't use applied rotary when you need it. (e.g. when skis are in the air, stivots, when you're skiing your rockered skis and need to turn quickly in deep snow in tight trees, etc.). Even HH uses applied rotary when needed; he's just saying you should learn how to ski without it.

 

[Tim Hodgson]

Just a little departure for my ah hah moment: I think this must have been what Clendenin meant when he said keep your weight on the uphill ski to prevent a wedge in his bump video which totally confused me until I watched this video. Thanks:

 

[James]

Spoiler alert: no matter what type of turn you make, you are using either foot-relative to leg rotation, leg-relative to foot rotation, or various combos of the 2 at some point(s) during your turn. It’s just in which direction, in relation to each other (leg/foot), said rotation is occurring and what type of muscular effort you are putting into it to manipulate this relationship. Unless the interface between your talus and calcaneous (stj) is abnormal/fused/imobilized.

zenny

I get what you're saying, but am relatively confused. The foot can rotate relative to the leg maybe 10-15 degrees. Therefore the leg can only rotate relative to the foot the same amount. So that's not the relative rotary motion we're talking about. What would we define it more accurately as relative to, pelvis? @François Pugh ?

Always been a bit puzzled by HH and enthusiasts insisting on no rotary...

Read Francois's post otherwise you'll be stuck in an endless loop.
Do you have a link to the Fahey video #3? Sounds like Kate Howe is doing the filming.

I'll call "driving the knee" bad, as you can't bend the knee joint inside - you have to use rotation, and it's almost always used at the wrong time.....right about when we should be rolling our pinkie toe inside!

Ron LeMaster. Mikaela, Aspen WCup Finals 2017

So would this be bad? How about negative knee angulation?

The knee does bend sideways actually, a little. In little kids seemingly quite a bit when crashing.

I find in powder thinking about the knees works better. Maybe because there's not enough immediate feedback from the foot/edge.

Some knee angulation:

The row with greek letters is: edge angle, inclination, hip angulation and knee angulation.

Agree with @Jamt that the appearance of knee angulation is probably often larger than it looks like because we rarely are looking through an axis along the outside ski.

 

[Average Joe]

View attachment 47185
Ron LeMaster. Mikaela, Aspen WCup Finals 2017

So would this be bad? How about negative knee angulation?

The knee does bend sideways actually, a little. In little kids seemingly quite a bit when crashing.

I find in powder thinking about the knees works better. Maybe because there's not enough immediate feedback from the foot/edge.

Some knee angulation:
View attachment 47191

I would challenge anyone to lie sideways and subject themselves to sideways knee angulation. It would be quite painful and probably result in a visit to your orthopedic. Even in children it will hurt!
When the skis engage on groomed terrain, I try to keep my hips moving down the fall line. At the apex I can feel rotation as the direction of the hips and skis diverge. Technically that is rotation, and yes even Mikaela does it.
She would not use a forced rotation of th femur as much as she’d use a squared hip position to establish her platform - that’s the difference I’m referring to.

 

[Zentune]

James, I intentionally left out rotation of the hip specifically *because it’s the rotation that many here are discussing, when in fact it is the rotation around the foot/lower leg that is paramount here....

Also, the talus in a normally functioning human is capable of 16 degrees of internal rotation from neutral and 8 degrees of external rotation, pronation and supination respectively. Yes the hip joint is capable of far greater rotation but the problem of focusing on the hip only (which is far too common imo) is one of skeletal stacking and muscular activation (eg, using the glutes to power internal rotation as opposed to letting the grf initiate said rotation). I believe this is why Harald is perceived as disavowing all rotation as it often gets misconstrued, rather his focus is tipping as we all know. Tipping IS rotation, just not in the same way many in psia understand it to be...?

The knee is capable of rotation to a small degree, especially when flexed and moved towards extension because of the shape of the proximal tibial and distal femoral condlyles and because I think of the toruque that transferes up the kinetic chain to the hip and pelvis. But as far as frontal plane bending goes, one really shouldn’t ‘go there’, not to mention the lcl/mcl are there in part to prevent such sideways movement.

zenny

 

[Rod9301]

I get what you're saying, but am relatively confused. The foot can rotate relative to the leg maybe 10-15 degrees. Therefore the leg can only rotate relative to the foot the same amount. So that's not the relative rotary motion we're talking about. What would we define it more accurately as relative to, pelvis? @François Pugh ?


Read Francois's post otherwise you'll be stuck in an endless loop.
Do you have a link to the Fahey video #3? Sounds like Kate Howe is doing the filming.



View attachment 47185
Ron LeMaster. Mikaela, Aspen WCup Finals 2017

So would this be bad? How about negative knee angulation?

The knee does bend sideways actually, a little. In little kids seemingly quite a bit when crashing.

I find in powder thinking about the knees works better. Maybe because there's not enough immediate feedback from the foot/edge.

Some knee angulation:
View attachment 47191

There's no such thing as knee angulation. It appears this way because of the angle the photo is taken from, and because there is a bit of knee flexion.

The knee doesn't bend laterally.