On using hip dump to improve skiing

[markojp]

Oh yeah, oh yeah. a$$ume-the-position as a diagnostic tool! Let's see those bottoms? And, precise? not aft? on the outside ski? not aft? oh, and not booting out? oh yeah. If I have to do Wedge Christie's for Level 2, then I want to see Examiners doing a$$ume-the-position.

Karlo, you're making it pretty loud and clear that you're not really ready to embrace something new.... " a$$umme " sound like someone have difficulty understanding and finding any value what your trainer(s) are trying to do and then demean the message and organization. There is no '$$sume, nor is there a 'position'. There's solid, balanced skiing. Sorry for the tough love and sincerely hope I'm wrong. Precise means exactly what the dictionary says. Mikaela does wedges. I've seen the video. They're textbook. Re-read the 5 fundamentals. Any one of those can be addressed in wedge turns and their variants. For what it's worth, the examiner WILL demonstrate what they want to see. If their demo isn't crystal clear, you're welcome to ask if they can demo it again. I recommend anyone in an exam to do that it something isn't clear. And yes, they certainly can do wedges. It's also part of their examiners' training. Precision simply means, balanced, accurate (no unnessary gymnastics), and skiing with intent... just the facts. If you don't see value in giving it a go, that's completely fine, but more or less saying what we're trying to share with is a$$something... well, I'm not inclinded to spend any more breath or time. Maybe in time you'll be ready to try something else. When you are, we'll be here. Good luck and hope you find your happy spot!

 

[karlo]

Karlo, you're making it pretty loud and clear that you're not really ready to embrace something new.... " a$$umme " sound like someone have difficulty understanding and finding any value what your trainer(s) are trying to do and then demean the message and organization. There is no '$$sume, nor is there a 'position'. There's solid, balanced skiing. Sorry for the tough love and sincerely hope I'm wrong. Precise means exactly what the dictionary says. Mikaela does wedges. I've seen the video. They're textbook. Re-read the 5 fundamentals. Any one of those can be addressed in wedge turns and their variants. For what it's worth, the examiner WILL demonstrate what they want to see. If their demo isn't crystal clear, you're welcome to ask if they can demo it again. I recommend anyone in an exam to do that it something isn't clear. And yes, they certainly can do wedges. It's also part of their examiners' training. Precision simply means, balanced, accurate (no unnessary gymnastics), and skiing with intent... just the facts. If you don't see value in giving it a go, that's completely fine, but more or less saying what we're trying to share with is a$$something... well, I'm not inclinded to spend any more breath or time. Maybe in time you'll be ready to try something else. When you are, we'll be here. Good luck and hope you find your happy spot!

I was just kidding about examiners doing the "a$$ume-" Really, I am going to check out what I feel in my ankles when I ski next, in just 9 days!

 

[LiquidFeet]

....Really, I am going to check out what I feel in my ankles when I ski next, in just 9 days!

Karlo, this is you tipping your left ankle to flatten the ski. You are skiing in 9 days? I'm jealous. Where?

.

 

[karlo]

Karlo, this is you tipping your left ankle to flatten the ski. You are skiing in 9 days? I'm jealous. Where?

Backcountry of Cerro Catedral (San Carlos de Bariloche), Argentina. Couple of summers ago, I peered over to the other side and was drawn to the hut. So, now, I've signed up for a hut-to-hut tour. Doing it with Andescross. Check them out. They're a local touring outfit and also do Antarctica tours. Penguins!

Yeah, tipping the ankle, it's do-able. Not comfortable. Like I mentioned before, after the problem with my boot, I had to tip the ankle because I was inside-edge heavy. It's not a pleasant position. Hence, I am failing to see why one would do it to initiate a turn. Anyway, I'll have different boots coming up. I'll check out what's happening at the ankle when I ski.

A thought did just come to mind. As I also said before, with my ankle tipped on account of my boot, when I skied over or across certain bumps, it felt like my ankle would break if stressed anymore, because there was no additional tipping that could be done with the ankle. So, the thought is that the ankle can absorb stress and motions. Now, I'm thinking as I write. What I said about it not feeling normal, I now think about walking, running, and jumping, even turning in a run like the football player. In the context of normal human activities, I do see ankles flexing, extending, tipping, to absorb stress, without our even thinking about it. I can't think of any intentional ankle tipping to do something (except now maybe skiing?). So, that now makes me think now that this ankle tipping thing might be a reaction to something else, not an action, that when we are asked to tip the ankle, we are asked to do something that results in the ankle tipping. Still writing as I think. No, we ARE being asked to tip the ankle. But, is that just a path to getting to the motion we want and, when we have it, the ankle thing becomes an autonomic reactive thing again? I mean, for sure, when I start edging, there will be forces on my ankle that will result in its tipping. That's why it felt like it was going to break when it was already tipped as far as it could go.

Continuing to think about this, and I have time because I am waiting for a colleague to leave so as to not leave her alone at the office, I'd say my skiing is like that fairy, with the wand, that flits around, what's her name? Or that of a hummingbird. That's why I'm a slow skier. I like that weightlessness in transition, so I do a lot of turns and my turns have a release that leave me weightless, even though my skis appear to be in contact with snow. Am I really going to tilt my ankles to initiate the turn? Or, am I going to have some leeway for ankle absorption when edging starts?

Just writing down my thoughts really for myself. Not seeking advice. How can I really know what I do when I ski unless I am focusing on it when I ski? So, it's back to... I will check out the ankle thing ... in the BC of Cerro Catedral.

 

[Mike King]

@karlo, note where in the turn that ankle was in that position: it was in the shaping phase of the turn, not in the initiation of the turn. In virtually all of your wedge christies, you did not untip the inside ski until well into the shaping phase of the turn. Next, the tipping of the ski is not just tipping the feet, but it is also tipping the lower leg just like @Skisailor said. Tipping the lower leg involves moving the knee to the inside of the new turn. It uses femur rotation. This requires that you have flexion in the hip and knee (well, the ankle too to maintain fore/aft balance). If you are too extended, you cannot tip the lower leg as femur rotation is translated into rotational force on the ski rather than lower leg tipping. Rather, the tipping has to come from moving the body inside the turn, resulting inclination without angulation.

So, the discomfort is twofold: too much ankle tipping and too late in the turn.

Mike

 

[karlo]

Hi. To understand the joke, me suggesting examiners to the a$$ume-the-position, one would have had to have read the earlier post on how I came up with that term, and what it means. And, then, flitting from Hip thread, to Wedge Christie thread, since Nancy re-directed the hip thing to my WC's, there, LiquidFeet said WC is not taught, it is used to demonstrate. So, I bounced that back to the Hip thread and kiddingly suggested that examiners (I mean to become an examiner) demonstrate the a$$ume-the-position, high level version, as Ligety demonstrated it, not teach it (like the Wedge Christie) as you and everyone have been saying. Yeah, there's a lot of bouncing around to get the joke.

 

[karlo]

Really, I am going to check out what I feel in my ankles when I ski next, in just 9 days!

I failed. Though I had in mind to do so, carrying a 20-40 lb backpack, depending on whether or not it was a traverse to a hut, or a day trip from a hut, the last thing I could feel were my ankles. My main focus was my core. One thing for sure, carrying a pack is a sure-fire way to improve your skiing. Some things I learned:

1. Skiing at an angle to the fall line. Much tougher on the core. Skiing straight down the fall line is far easier.

2. Dumping the hip, but in the correct position, what I call S-ume the position? Don't bother. I always wondered why ski mountaineers aren't skiing very dynamically. Dynamic skiing presumes nimbleness, and skis that will rebound. With a heavy pack on your back, one is not nimble; and the skis are not going to rebound the greater weight. Carry a mini refrigerator into your daughter's new dorm room, as I recently did, and that basically answers the question about being dynamic.

3. No way the focus is first on ankle or feet. If the focus is not on the core first and foremost, forget it. After core, for me, it was angulation and "pedalling". With the weight, there was reliance on the strongest parts body to retain balance and to initiate movement.

That said, I generally skied poorly. Any shift aft, the pack pulled me down. Skiing over a track, I'd get pushed forward uncontrollably by the pack. More than once, I simply got pulled back onto the snow by the weight, or get thrown forward into a face plant. The only time I could get good turns in was when skiing straight down the fall line in untracked snow or on hardpack. Focusing on ankles will have to wait, when I ski without a heavy pack.

In case anyone is interested, the trip report is filed,

https://www.pugski.com/threads/bariloche-argentina-hut-to-hut.11501/

 

[markojp]

Hi. To understand the joke, me suggesting examiners to the a$$ume-the-position, .....

So, I bounced that back to the Hip thread and kiddingly suggested that examiners (I mean to become an examiner) demonstrate the a$$ume-the-position,....

Karlo, respectfully, to become an examiner you'll need to get you're L3, then divisional staff, then examiner training and mastery of wedge Christies that you've questioned those same examiners ability to execute. It's a long journey. The subtext for your jokes and a$$umptions seems to be frustration with the journey and misunderstanding of the basic fundamentals of skiing, particularly the importance and nuances of D.I.R.T. And yes, skiing with a large pack changes our center of mass, and yes, it can be more work AND amplifies the need for upper body discipline of which functional core tension is an important component. Glad you had a great trip. It probably wasn't the best venue or conditions for reinventing one's skiing, but it's also great you realised that hip dumping isn't going to help.

 

[karlo]

you've questioned those same examiners ability to

No, I never questioned examiners ability to execute, any drill, task, or teaching method. I was just saying that examiners can do a "proper" hip dump by "s-uming", let's use convention (pain in the s turns), the proper position. And, why not, only in jest, if Wedge Christie is, not something to teach, only done to demonstrate. What a fun way to demonstrate a proper position.

ok, ok, no more hip dumps. Promise, promise. I will focus on what I'm feeling at the ankles next time out on skis. Oh, btw, I'm going for L2, not L3. Haven't decided if L3 is something I want.

 

[Rod9301]

Karlo, i ski a lot in the Backcountry with a backpack, 25-45 lbs.

It is totally possible to ski the way i ski without a backpack. I.e initiate all turns by flexing and tipping the new inside ski from the little toe.

 

[Nancy Hummel]

No, I never questioned examiners ability to execute, any drill, task, or teaching method. I was just saying that examiners can do a "proper" hip dump by "s-uming", let's use convention (pain in the s turns), the proper position. And, why not, only in jest, if Wedge Christie is, not something to teach, only done to demonstrate. What a fun way to demonstrate a proper position.

ok, ok, no more hip dumps. Promise, promise. I will focus on what I'm feeling at the ankles next time out on skis. Oh, btw, I'm going for L2, not L3. Haven't decided if L3 is something I want.

Karlo, it appears to me that you do not appreciate the significance of the wedge christie. A proper wedge christie shows the examiner that you are capable of executing movement patterns that are required for good skiing. While we do not teach a wedge christie, good instructors teach the movement patterns that compromise a wedge christie and parallel turns. I suggest that if you want to pass Level 2, you delve into this topic a bit more.

 

[karlo]

Karlo, i ski a lot in the Backcountry with a backpack, 25-45 lbs.

It is totally possible to ski the way i ski without a backpack. I.e initiate all turns by flexing and tipping the new inside ski from the little toe.

So glad to hear that. I had a pretty tough time on both the up and down that I gave our tail guide my newly purchased backpack as a tip, doubting I would do another hut to hut tour. With import duty and taxes, it would be quite pricey purchased there; he chose that over cash. But, 8 days later,,I am contemplating another tour like this as a real possibility. I guess it's like child birth, not that I would know; but we do have two kids. Last night, I started the assessment. My 30+ year old sleeping bag weighed in at 4 lbs. I didn't need a sandwich and orange for lunch. A power bar would have been sufficient; and i didn't have to carry my week's supply everyday. My soft-flex 84 wood skis with frame bindings can be replaced with stiffer carbon skis with pin bindings. Only one day did I consume my liter of water; not sure if carrying more than I needed or not consuming the liter is a problem. And, still assessing. See what can be learned by putting a hip dump to the test?

Isn't Amazon working on drones to carry freight? Do they operate at cold temperatures and in thinner air? That would be so Awesome!

Edit. Oh, on the last day, the hike out, I was shown the powerstraps of my backpack, at my shoulders. What a difference! I always felt like the pack was swinging ever so slightly with every turn. Felt like it was pulling me this way and that. Gotta get this right and checking out the ankle thing.

 

[karlo]

Karlo, it appears to me that you do not appreciate the significance of the wedge christie. A proper wedge christie shows the examiner that you are capable of executing movement patterns that are required for good skiing. While we do not teach a wedge christie, good instructors teach the movement patterns that compromise a wedge christie and parallel turns. I suggest that if you want to pass Level 2, you delve into this topic a bit more.

I do appreciate it. I'm not suggesting it's a waste of time; it's not. I like the concept of developing and demonstrating movement patterns. Like one ski skiing - except that's more fun!

 

[markojp]

No, I never questioned examiners ability to execute, any drill, task, or teaching method. I was just saying that examiners can do a "proper" hip dump by "s-uming", let's use convention (pain in the s turns), the proper position. And, why not, only in jest, if Wedge Christie is, not something to teach, only done to demonstrate. What a fun way to demonstrate a proper position.

ok, ok, no more hip dumps. Promise, promise. I will focus on what I'm feeling at the ankles next time out on skis. Oh, btw, I'm going for L2, not L3. Haven't decided if L3 is something I want.

And this 'position' thing.... there is no 'position'. There is no 'proper hip dump'. You're either in dynamic balance, or you're not. Until you get past the idea of a 'position', you're going to unnecessarily limit your successes and it'll be difficult to pass L2.

 

[karlo]

get past the idea of a 'position',

No, I would not use position as an element of any L2 requirements. In fact, I was not suggesting, except in jest, that a position be used in any professional aspect of teaching skiing. I was referring to it for personal learning. I did say above, "ok, no more hip dumps", but I guess it continues. Yes, there is no "proper hip dump" from the perspective of teaching. But, from the perspective of self-exploration, there is. In that context, a proper hip dump is one in which one is in balance throughout the turn, despite the loss of nimbleness. What did I learn exploring it, to make it the best I can make it? I learned to pull my inside foot back. Not infrequently, I found myself balanced on the inside ski (helpful if the inside foot is pulled back), and, having discovered that possibility, got to like skiing on one ski on occasion. And, I kind of think getting into one and out of one, a proper hip dump as defined here, is pretty dynamic. Oh, and BTW, I became so proficient at a "good" hip dump, that it also taught me that my skis can grab bullet-proof ice on a steep, bumpy Heavenly pitch, Real Early in a turn. In that instance, it's a ride that one would not want to let go of, and I shudder for those who would let it go and careen into the rocks and woods; which is of course why one would not want to teach it. But, having learned how high in the turn a ski's edge can be made to grab, I was able to put that to advantage in conventional turns. Again, it is about self-exploration and ski-capability-exploration, for oneself. Hence, from the start of this thread, I took the matter out of Alex's thread. To me, it's like learning to walk. One doesn't follow instructions from someone else to do it this way and that. There is a lot of stumbling around and falling to learn it, which includes being outside the zone of safety that a professional system must impose, a absolute mandate which I understand, respect and agree with. But, I kinda think that, to ski really well, one needs to explore, for oneself, the edges of the envelop and even beyond that. Really, who hasn't tried doing this or that and ended up in a face-plant, then laughing, and having learned something?

I won't teach a hip dump to a student.

 

[markojp]

Karlo, I'm checking out of this one. All I can say is good luck.

 

[LiquidFeet]

Karlo, I think you are using terms in unconventional ways and therefore not communicating clearly. Or maybe you do mean what you seem to mean. To clear this up, would you consider explaining in your own words ...

Can you describe specifically what you mean by "pain-in-the-S-turns"?
And what you mean specifically by "hip dump"?
And when you use the word "position" what is the position you refer to, specifically?

 

[markojp]

....

 

[Steve]

I assume LiquidFeet knows what they are, the question was does Karlo?

 

[markojp]

I assume LiquidFeet knows what they are, the question was does Karlo?

ah yes.... silly me. I deleted the clip.