• For more information on how to avoid pop-up ads and still support SkiTalk click HERE.

On using hip dump to improve skiing

Status
Not open for further replies.
Thread Starter
TS
karlo

karlo

Out on the slopes
Inactive
Joined
May 11, 2017
Posts
2,708
Location
NJ
I think there are two subjects in this thread now. The first is the subject of the thread, on the use of hip dump to improve skiing. The second is whether or not a turn starts from hip or feet. I will address the former first.

I think my poor vocabulary has ignited some heartfelt feelings, that hip dumps are for-sure not the way to go. I want to be clear, I agree, as it pertains to what the accepted meaning of what a hip dump is. I tried to describe a different type of hip dump because I couldn't come up with another term. Well, I have been inspired.

aka "a$$-skiing".

What I have been trying to describe might be called, "a$$ume the position". Or, in keeping with PSIA convention "S-ume the position". That position can be angulated,

wp_ss_20180822_0002.png

Ingrid Backstrom in Steep,,Sony Pictures

Here, Backstrom is finishing a turn. By S-uming the position, I mean assume that position way at the top of the turn. Though that's not what Caston did here, in Return of the Turn Episode 2, let's assume he rapidly entered this position,

wp_ss_20180824_0001.png



done at the very top of the turn, baring bottoms to those (...uhh, ok, I mean of his skis) to those above him, above being viewer's left of him in photo.

Here, Ligety bares his bottom, in the aforementioned video he posted on his Facebook page, by assuming the position,

wp_ss_20180829_0002 (2).png


Ligety holds this position through a park and ride turn. What is the distinguishing difference between what I am calling S-ume the position and "park and ride"? S-ume the position is a park and ride turn that starts way, way high in the turn. If it were an exam tsk, there would be an examiner uphill, looking for exposure of the bottoms, the more exposure the better. Angulation would not be a metric and variant from the Japanese video,,with inclination, would be acceptable,

wp_ss_20180829_0001 (2).png


I stand by my view that a skier can derive the benefits I listed in the OP. I reiterate, as an instructor,,I would not teach it. And, certainly a beginner or inexperienced skier shouldn't be playing with it.

Now, as to the second matter, initiating turn with hip or feet, I think that discussion needs clarity of bodily parts: Lower spine (flexible), pelvis, hip (the joint), the leg, ankle, and feet. And, again,,I am at fault for not being clear on these terms from the start.

If you can let tgo of the 'yeah, but you have to start with the hip' , you'll make huge strides in your skiing

Modern technique, however, relies on tipping the ski to engage the sidecut and as the tipping continues, bending the ski to decrease the turning radius of the turn.These movements begin in the ankles and continue by tipping the lower leg.

I do not think hip first. I'll try to pay attention more closely next time I ski, but I'm pretty sure the first thing I think about is moving my pelvis, with movement of my lower back. It can be sideways, or, with a reverse-pelvic tilt, it can be backwards. The upper body above the lower spine is still, unless counter. Again, that word counter might be wrong because at the very top of turn, I am (countering?) to the inside ski and downhill, not to the outside ski. After pelvis, I am thinking hips, to achieve whatever flex and extension I need, then, as skis engage, ankles and feet. Ankles act reactively. Feet are sensors.

The problem with moving the upper body (and yes, the hip is part of the upper body) is that the movement is most likely to wind up with inclination, not angulation

I do not mean I move my upper body. I move my pelvis with my lower spine. Upper body is quite still.

weight on the inside ski rather than the outside ski, balance aft on the ski, with the result that you push the ski away from you to attempt to achieve edge angle, and the maximum pressure arises, as a result, late in the finish of the turn rather than near the apex

I do not have these symptoms unless I want them.

wipe the hip dump from your mind

Done. :)

BTW, I consider myself a slow skier. I am not trying to be a racer. Everything I do, I do for control of speed, so, though I don't often park and ride, I do engage edges as high in the turn as I can
 

markojp

mtn rep for the gear on my feet
Industry Insider
Instructor
Joined
Nov 12, 2015
Posts
6,601
Location
PNW aka SEA
Karlo, you need to meet us on the hill. Moving the pelvis and consciously twisting/bending the spine is MAKING FORCES. WIth a few notable exceptions that's getting the cart a couple of time zones ahead of the horse... we're in the business of MANAGING THEM.

FWIW, I've coached with Ingrid in the past. She's close to the snow in your picture because she's hauling the mail and managing large forces. She doesn't have time to make them unless it's an emergency... that's why when we see her on film, she FLOWS. MAKING FORCES causes us to BLOW and creates disruption in moving from foot to foot (early, often, and accurately from outside ski to outside ski) DOWN the hill. You can grab a frame from anyone you want, but the fundamentals of high level skiing don't change. If that's where you want to be, then go there. Hanging on to the old is a rabbit hole of rationalization that will hold you back.
 
Last edited:

markojp

mtn rep for the gear on my feet
Industry Insider
Instructor
Joined
Nov 12, 2015
Posts
6,601
Location
PNW aka SEA
Thanks for that, geepers! He sure did say 'feet' and mentions my favorite ski muscle, the AT, lot. ogsmile And though he's a member of PSIA, the only convention he's mentioning are common to all great skiing.
 
Last edited:

Skisailor

Laziest Skier on the Mountain
Skier
Joined
Aug 4, 2018
Posts
280
Location
Bozeman, Montana
I am a stickler for language because I see how it causes all kinds of confusion in clinics I have attended in my ski school. So I'm curious about how folks on this forum approach the tipping concept.

There is general agreement among my colleagues that tipping should begin "down low" before the hip moves in. The language I've heard used is "tipping from the lower legs". "tipping with the lower legs", or just "tipping the lower legs". There is usually a lot of discussion about inverting and everting the ankles. That's fine.

What I personally never hear as we move up the kinetic chain, is that the vast majority of the actual range of motion that we access as we manage forces to angle shins away from the vertical that results in a ski that is tipped over, occurs in the hip - specifically the way the femur moves within the hip socket. It's also the key to the angulation we need to accomplish higher edge angles. But again - I never hear any in depth discussion of the hip. It's always feet and ankles.

I think it's misleading and is leading to a lot of confusion as instructors (and students) try to learn to make this type of turn. The hip is where it's at!

Edited to add - it's like they are so worried about hip dumping that they don't want to discuss the hip at all . . . .
 
Last edited:

markojp

mtn rep for the gear on my feet
Industry Insider
Instructor
Joined
Nov 12, 2015
Posts
6,601
Location
PNW aka SEA
Carts and horses, skisailor. Both are moving the freight, but they have to be in the right order. FWIW, I don't hesitate to talk about the monkey wrench in the middle if there's somthing funky going on like twisting or dropping the inside of the pelvis or other big movements (or conversely a clear lack of mobility) that's keeping us from getting to the outside foot early and often. There's nothing in the the chain that is mutually exclusive, but there are effective and ineffective ways to get there. Where? Dynamically balanced over the outside ski at apex and moving our CoM over/through the path of our skis in transition.

(One small cue that can help with angulation at apex is to keep the outside elbow close(r) to the snow... it seems to work better than the usual "keep your shoulders level to the horizon" for many... ok. Tired again. Back to sleep. ogsmile )
 
Last edited:

Monster

Monstrous for some time now. . .
Skier
Joined
May 8, 2018
Posts
172
Location
NH
There are indeed many ways "a$$ume the position". . . :roflmao:

I "liked" your post just 'cuz you quoted mine.
 

Skisailor

Laziest Skier on the Mountain
Skier
Joined
Aug 4, 2018
Posts
280
Location
Bozeman, Montana
Carts and horses, skisailor. Both are moving the freight, but they have to be in the right order. FWIW, I don't hesitate to talk about the monkey wrench in the middle if there's somthing funky going on like twisting or dropping the inside of the pelvis or other movements that are keeping us from getting to the outside early and often. There's nothing in the the chain that is mutually exclusive, but there are effective and ineffective ways to get there. Where? Dynamically balanced over the outside ski at apex and moving our CoM over/through the path of our skis in transition.

Thanks for chiming in.

I don't necessarily disagree with you but it's not really addressing the issue I see of clinicians/instructors who talk about "tipping the lower leg" but don't seem connected in their language to what that might actually mean to a student - what the student is hearing. It's like not understanding that if we want to slap ourselves in the face, it's not the hand that initiates the motion. It's the elbow.

If we stand in our living room with hands on knees and try to tip an imaginary ski on edge withOUT allowing the knees to move at all laterally, how much actual tipping do we get? A little tiny bit from our ankles. If we allow the knees to move laterally, where, biomechanically, is that movement actually originating?

I think clinicians understand this - but I don't think they realize how imprecise their language often is regarding this issue. And I wonder whether the problem is what I theorized above - they are so worried about not allowing the hip to move inside too early, that they are afraid to talk about the hip at all (except. to deal with things that they think are going wrong with it, as you stated above).
 
Thread Starter
TS
karlo

karlo

Out on the slopes
Inactive
Joined
May 11, 2017
Posts
2,708
Location
NJ
Karlo, you need to meet us on the hill

Who's us? You and Ingrid?! Where and when? And, I don't care if it's on the hill. (the dog with open mouth, hanging tongue, furiously wagging tail emoticon)

There is general agreement among my colleagues that tipping should begin "down low" before the hip moves in. The language I've heard used is "tipping from the lower legs". "tipping with the lower legs", or just "tipping the lower legs". There is usually a lot of discussion about inverting and everting the ankles. That's fine.

What I personally never hear as we move up the kinetic chain

I wrote my last post in bed. This morning, I checked my proprioceptive recollections and rotated my pelvis. Yup, that's what I think of when I ski. But, looking down, I noticed, that pelvic movement is accompanied by ankle movement! And, the other way, I can't move my ankles without moving my pelvis, not if I'm to keep my upper body quiet. I've always thought of hula dancing and hula hooping as analogies. Our focus is on their pelvic motions and quietness of upper body, but, oh yeah!, their ankles are moving too. I wonder if the concept of moving ankles and moving pelvis are one and the same, with the brain capable of using either as the point of focus.
 

markojp

mtn rep for the gear on my feet
Industry Insider
Instructor
Joined
Nov 12, 2015
Posts
6,601
Location
PNW aka SEA
And, the other way, I can't move my ankles without moving my pelvis,.

Do you have a medical condition or injury that limits your mobility? Can you ski in a gliding wedge? What happens when you pull your toes toward your knees? Are you confusing pelvis with femur?

The who is any one of a number of us here. Could be me if you're out this way, could be Nancy if you're in Snowmass... there are a number of good instructors the post and watch here. Some are PSIA, USSA, others CSIA, some Harb, and even a few in more far flung national organizations. Where do you ski and what school are you affiliated with? Beyond that, it seems you're committed to your world view, so there isn't much to add. I'm going to bow out of this one for awhile.

Skisailor, I understand your frustration. I've had the same myself at one point so I certainly won't shy away from talking about the pelvis... it's what a chose to do my long teaching segment for L3 because I hadn't heard much about it from others, yet leveling the pelvis is also critical for proper stacking and accessing one's fumctional range of mobility. I'd say find the best trainers at your school and pin them down for specific help. That said, I'll never advocate for turns that start from 'the hip'. Regarding language, it's important to have the right 'do' to match the words with the movement we're looking for. For someone I'm trying to get to start from the feet, I'd simply stand on their skis and ask him to tip his feet and aski them to identify a sensation that they feel IN the boot to do this.
 
Last edited:

LiquidFeet

instructor
Instructor
Joined
Nov 12, 2015
Posts
6,697
Location
New England
Paul Lorenz has an article about this very issue. He knows his stuff, and some here might find his perspective valuable. His article will add complexity to the conversation because he uses terms a little differently than has been used so far in this thread. We are all good readers and can probably deal with that. He has a very clear understanding of when to use the ankles, and when to use the hip. It's worth a read.

https://www.paullorenzclinics.com/blog/hip-angulation-or-knee-angulation-or-both
Screen-shot-2013-07-24-at-7.12.50-AM.png
 

LiquidFeet

instructor
Instructor
Joined
Nov 12, 2015
Posts
6,697
Location
New England
@karlo, you posted this upthread: "I do not think hip first. I'll try to pay attention more closely next time I ski, but I'm pretty sure the first thing I think about is moving my pelvis, with movement of my lower back. It can be sideways, or, with a reverse-pelvic tilt, it can be backwards. The upper body above the lower spine is still, unless counter. Again, that word counter might be wrong because at the very top of turn, I am (countering?) to the inside ski and downhill, not to the outside ski. After pelvis, I am thinking hips, to achieve whatever flex and extension I need, then, as skis engage, ankles and feet. Ankles act reactively. Feet are sensors." And in conclusion, you coined the phrase "a$$ume the position" to describe this movement pattern. You also wrote: "BTW, I consider myself a slow skier. I am not trying to be a racer. Everything I do, I do for control of speed, so, though I don't often park and ride, I do engage edges as high in the turn as I can."

From the blue words above I assume you are going slow when you move your hip/pelvis down and inside the new turn. Since you start this movement not with the feet and legs, I am also making an assumption of when you get your hip the lowest position. And I'm assuming, because you coined the phrase "a$$sume the position" that you are interested in getting your hips/pelvis into a certain low-to-the-snow position.

Why do you want to get your hip low? Why is this "position" important to you? I suspect it's for the same reason most people want to do this. People see the dramatic photos of elite skiers with hip-to-snow and want to be able to do what they do. This leads to an assumption that a skier who can get the hip to the snow is a skillful skier. With this notion in mind, it's quite natural to try to move the hip down close to the snow.

Things that we can't see in the photos matter a great deal in making those elite skiers as skillful as they are.
 
Last edited:

markojp

mtn rep for the gear on my feet
Industry Insider
Instructor
Joined
Nov 12, 2015
Posts
6,601
Location
PNW aka SEA
And one last quicky for you karlo.... just want to be über klar that skiing starts with the feet, but certainly doesn't end there.
 

Monster

Monstrous for some time now. . .
Skier
Joined
May 8, 2018
Posts
172
Location
NH
Here's my $0.02:

Healthy knees don't bend laterally, and though you can argue all day about ankles inverting or everting inside boots, in rigid boots, ankles don't bend laterally in a way that can do much to articulate a ski. (For the sake of discussion; "articulate" - that's my word for changing the relationship between the latitude line of a ski base relative to a flat surface it's sitting on. Putting the ski on edge. (This is my jargon only.)

The hip joint on the other hand is extremely versatile.

https://www.brainlab.org/get-educated/hip/hip-anatomy/how-does-your-hip-joint-move/

It's capable of abduction, adduction, flexion, extension, circumduction, and rotation. Further, it can rotate or circumduct while abducted, addcucted, flexed, or extended. It can also do all that cool stuff with knee or ankle flexed or extended, and with or without tib/fib rotation (also possible in ski boots). Fancy words for saying it can do a hell of a lot. Knees pretty much only flex and extend. Ankles can do a lot more, but not so much in rigid boots. There, it's mostly (limited) flexion and extension. Notably, for the vertical balance center of the body to remain plumb on a hypothetical flat and level surface, flexing the knee means also flexing the hip and ankle.

So what articulates a ski? With an extended knee - abduction of the hip joint or full-body angulation. With a bent knee - adduction and rotation of the hip joint, and/or full body angulation, and all kinds of nuanced and fascinating combinations thereof. This is not to consider changing the center line of a ski under the body with either hip or tib/fib rotation.

Now I'm not saying for one moment that you don't feel the lateral movement in space that certainly happens when a ski is articulated with the laterally fixed knee and ankle joints, that it's wrong to feel that, or that it's bad to visualize or consiously induce pressures in those locations, or use those visualizations or sensations to teach people to ski. That's into the realm of what works for whom and gets really subjective in a hurry. I'm talking about the physics, the body mechanics. Those are what they are, and for me and me alone, it is valuable to understand them clearly.
 

Steve

SkiMangoJazz
Pass Pulled
Joined
Nov 13, 2015
Posts
2,338
karlo, the most important thing you can do is to learn to separate your legs from your pelvis. By thinking hips you are working against that.

Rotating your legs in your hip sockets without rotating your pelvis will unlock a lot of doors for you. Feet up, yes. Legs next.

As long as you insist on focusing on your hips you are going to be stuck where you are. No one is saying that one doesn't use their hips, but thinking about them as you do is a recipe for lack of separation, and a sure fire way to remain a Level 1.
 

Steve

SkiMangoJazz
Pass Pulled
Joined
Nov 13, 2015
Posts
2,338
@Monster you posted as I did. I will add that by moving the legs, rotating the legs, you are creating hip angles. The big difference is what are you moving? Standing up and twisting the hips to create counter, is a very different feeling than standing there and rotating the legs to create counter. Try it. Even with feet planted and not turning you can twist the femurs.

It's a mindset of a quiet upper body. You can't move the hips in such a way that they don't move. I tried for years to actively keep my upper body quiet. The key was learning to move my lower body (legs.) Simple solution, no effort in keeping the body from moving.

You can move the legs so that the relationship between them and the hips changes - so yes that complex articulating joint is changing. It's just that it's the moving of the legs that creates the angles.
 

Steve

SkiMangoJazz
Pass Pulled
Joined
Nov 13, 2015
Posts
2,338
I think Liquid Feet bringing in knee vs. hip angulation took things off in an unintended direction. We're not talking about which joints flex and extend but about what we DO to create that flexion and extension. And what we think about.
 

mdf

entering the Big Couloir
Skier
Team Gathermeister
SkiTalk Supporter
Joined
Nov 12, 2015
Posts
7,215
Location
Boston Suburbs
Paul Lorenz has an article about this very issue. He knows his stuff, and some here might find his perspective valuable. His article will add complexity to the conversation because he uses terms a little differently than has been used so far in this thread. We are all good readers and can probably deal with that. He has a very clear understanding of when to use the ankles, and when to use the hip. It's worth a read.

https://www.paullorenzclinics.com/blog/hip-angulation-or-knee-angulation-or-both
Screen-shot-2013-07-24-at-7.12.50-AM.png

Completely beside the point, I want to say that is an amazing photo as a photo. Amazing composition, great angle, great colors, the spray and the bokeh producing just the right amount of isolation of the subject from the background. (Oh yeah, and the fact that the subject is a great skier doesn't hurt either.)
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Sponsor

Staff online

  • Andy Mink
    Everyone loves spring skiing but not in January
Top