On using hip dump to improve skiing

[markojp]

Again, think 'switch' and 'light'. The switch illuminates nothing, but the light doesn't turn on without it. And have a look at both Jonathan's audio interview and Paul L's article. No one is saying skiing happens ONLY in the feet. At the beginning of the season, if I'm skiing well, my feet and AT are tired. My hamstrings and glutes have gotten a workout, and my hip sockets are often a bit sore. Thighs are fine. How would this happen if ONLY my feet are moving? The big difference is are my movements causes or results. I'll chose the latter and let my feet and skis do the bulk. And yes, on high performance turns my hip will be close to the snow. It's not something I actively think about though. Moving the foot in the boot tips the boot and puts the ski on edge. The ankle and feet are the first joints in the chain and closest to the snow. Angulation and inclination, knee/hip angulation are higher up the chain and absolutely are in the equation... I think we're getting to page 5 on page 2. Anyhow, off to work for the day!


"We're not talking about which joints flex and extend but about what we DO to create that flexion and extension. And what we think about."

And thank you Steve for the best post in the thread.

 

[LiquidFeet]

Things that we can't see in skier photos, such as the one of Paul Lorenz, matter a great deal in making those elite skiers as skillful as they are. What I'm going to say below is derived from my experience as a not-yet-elite-skier, so if more skillful skiers are reading here please correct me if what I say doesn't match what you do.

None of these things show up in still shots, so they easily get missed by skiers hoping to up their game by copying a photo position in their own skiing. (I speak from experience as a recovered hip dumper.)

Intention matters a great deal (elite skiers are not after a position but after bending a gripping outside ski in order to control turn shape).
When in the turn the hip gets the lowest matters (their hips get low at apex, not after, because that's where they want the turn to be sharpest).
Sensations in the ankles and feet inside the boot matter (they are indeed controlling the small ROM of their foot-tipping, and they are monitoring where they feel the most lateral pressure from the boots on the sides of their feet, their ankles and lower legs; when this ROM Is used up they move up the chain with their movements).
Timing of when they shorten the inside leg and when they lengthen the outside leg matters (that timing determines the speed at which they get upside down in the top of the turn and therefore whether they can get the turn shape they want at the place on the hill they want from the ski bending at the fall line/apex.
How the skier moves the feet under the body matters (where BoS is relative to CoM determines how much "weight" is directed to that outside ski at any moment and it also determines the platform angle, both of which control the outside ski's grip and bend and the resulting turn shape.)
Speed matters (bending that ski to sharpen the turn is their intention and speed affects how much the ski bends at apex; at slow speeds lowering the hip this much is overkill and results in a delayed release for the next turn.)

 

[mdf]

elite skiers are not after a position

...except when they are. Sometimes they are literally skiing for the still photo.

 

[Monster]

"We're not talking about which joints flex and extend but about what we DO to create that flexion and extension."

Oh, well I was - sorry. I don't think you can really understand what to DO without an accurate understanding the mechanics of anatomy. But that's just me.

 

[Skisailor]

twisting the hips to create counter, is a very different feeling than standing there and rotating the legs to create counter

Yes. Allowing those hips to twist - aka a hip rotation - can lead to alot of problems, like ski tail washout. A big key to expert skiing, IMHO, is learning what it feels like to stabilize the pelvis and turn the femurs within the hip sockets as a way of separating in the rotational plane.

Beginners learn these basics on day 1 when we teach them to rotate their legs inward to form a wedge. Unfortunately, in moving to parallel skiing, I find that this kind of separation at the hip sockets is often lost - part of the intermediate "plateau" . . . .

 

[Steve]

Oh, well I was - sorry. I don't think you can really understand what to DO without an accurate understanding the mechanics of anatomy. But that's just me.

Of course, and I'm glad you did. I was just adding to it really. Sorry if my wording was dismissive, it wasn't meant to be.

 

[karlo]

Really? Are you sure? I can and I'd be surprised if you can't. Have you practiced railroad tracks?

Yes, I have done railroad tracks. Yes, that is ankle centric. But, I find the motion to be unnatural with respect to regular skiing. Standing on a floor here, yes, I can tilt my feet only with the ankles. Again, feels unnatural. Feels non-fluid.

What happens when you pull you

Didn't think of that one. I was thinking of directions of motions that would tilt the ski.

I'm assuming, because you coined the phrase "a$$sume the position" that you are interested in getting your hips/pelvis into a certain low-to-the-snow position.

Not for general skiing. Low-to-snow is an outcome and, for me, it is one that generally happens by necessity. Last time I did it recreationally, maybe for years ago, I was skiing with some snowboarders baring their bottoms to those above them. I joined them in the fun. Two seasons so, I did it at beginning of season as kind of a drill that I chose for myself. Last time I did intentional low-to-snow regular skiing (low to snow at apex), last season, I was checking out how low I could go with short radius turns. It's all cool. But, for me, like Wedge Christies, its not something I would do in my normal skiing.

I assume you are going slow when you move your hip/

Going slow to move hip low to snow? No, has to be fast. I normally ski slow. The a$$ume-the-position, gotta go fast, otherwise no platform and one keels over. What I see are experienced skiers that don't understand how high in a turn they can set an edge for turn initiation. So, go fast enough, a$$ume-the-position, and go for a fun ride. Discover how high in turn edges can hold, and at how high an edge angle. I think I am an interpolative learner. I tend to test the boundary layers, then explore everything in between.

Anyway, I agree that an instructor ought not teach a$$ume-the-position, despite what can be learned from it. I think it's simply something that one could do if motivated to do so by videos like those above.

Next time I'm out, I'll focus my mind on whether or not my ankles are moving to tip ski. Maybe some of you can focus on what's happening to your pelvis. I don't mean railroad tracks. I mean just regular skiing.

 

[Nancy Hummel]

Yes, I have done railroad tracks. Yes, that is ankle centric. But, I find the motion to be unnatural with respect to regular skiing. Standing on a floor here, yes, I can tilt my feet only with the ankles. Again, feels unnatural. Feels non-fluid.



Didn't think of that one. I was thinking of directions of motions that would tilt the ski.



Not for general skiing. Low-to-snow is an outcome and, for me, it is one that generally happens by necessity. Last time I did it recreationally, maybe for years ago, I was skiing with some snowboarders baring their bottoms to those above them. I joined them in the fun. Two seasons so, I did it at beginning of season as kind of a drill that I chose for myself. Last time I did intentional low-to-snow regular skiing (low to snow at apex), last season, I was checking out how low I could go with short radius turns. It's all cool. But, for me, like Wedge Christies, its not something I would do in my normal skiing.



Going slow to move hip low to snow? No, has to be fast. I normally ski slow. The a$$ume-the-position, gotta go fast, otherwise no platform and one keels over. What I see are experienced skiers that don't understand how high in a turn they can set an edge for turn initiation. So, go fast enough, a$$ume-the-position, and go for a fun ride. Discover how high in turn edges can hold, and at how high an edge angle. I think I am an interpolative learner. I tend to test the boundary layers, then explore everything in between.

Anyway, I agree that an instructor ought not teach a$$ume-the-position, despite what can be learned from it. I think it's simply something that one could do if motivated to do so by videos like those above.

Next time I'm out, I'll focus my mind on whether or not my ankles are moving to tip ski. Maybe some of you can focus on what's happening to your pelvis. I don't mean railroad tracks. I mean just regular skiing.

Karlo, two thoughts.

If tilting your ankles while you are skiing feels weird or non fluid, I suggest that you figure out why. Maybe your stance precludes you from accessing the full range of edging movements.

While most people do not go out and do wedge christies in “regular skiing”, if you learn the movement patterns to do a great WC and incorporate those movement patterns into your skiing, you will see huge improvement.

 

[karlo]

karlo, ...Rotating your legs in your hip sockets without rotating your pelvis will unlock a lot of doors for you.

Can I tilt my pelvis?

Sensations in the ankles and feet inside the boot matter

Oh boy, yes. Last season, I tried to salvage my favorite boot, whose soles were wearing thin, by adding risers. That resulted in edges inside-heavy. To compensate, I tilted my ankles, yeah, I can do that. But, of course, it feels unnatural. Couple of turns in moguls, I felt like my ankle would break because I was already at the extreme end of motion and there was nothing left to absorb in that direction. What does that have to do with anything? I'll check it out next time on snow, but this is all non-intuitive to me, moving the ankle to tip. If I used my ankles like that, to tip my skis on edge, I'd think that I would have that possible-ankle-break come up all the time. Obviously, none of you do, so there is a gap in my understanding.

 

[Mike King]

@karlo, the subject of this presentation is not exactly on point, but there are a lot of photo montages of great ski racers developing big angles in the first few slides. So, looking at those montages, what's moving first, the ankles and lower legs, or the hip/pelvis? How much are the lower legs moving relative to the lateral movement of the pelvis?

http://www.ronlemaster.com/presentations/USSA-symposium-Copper-Mt-2015.pdf

 

[karlo]

@karlo, the subject of this presentation is not exactly on point, but there are a lot of photo montages of great ski racers developing big angles in the first few slides. So, looking at those montages, what's moving first, the ankles and lower legs, or the hip/pelvis? How much are the lower legs moving relative to the lateral movement of the pelvis?

http://www.ronlemaster.com/presentations/USSA-symposium-Copper-Mt-2015.pdf

In slide 7, I see rotation at the hip, turning the femur to the inside from snapshot 1 to 4. From 3 to 4, I see a lower of the pelvis.
In slide 8, I see rotation at the hip, turning the femur to the inside from 2-4. From 3-4, I see a lower of the pelvis.
HOWEVER, ignoring what happens at the end of a turn and looking at it only from transition, which for me is my neutral point, both the rotation and the lower of pelvis happen at the same time. I mean, we are talking about turn INITIATION, right?

Edit
I can't see what's happening to the ankle, as it is in the boot.

Karlo, two thoughts.

If tilting your ankles while you are skiing feels weird or non fluid, I suggest that you figure out why. Maybe your stance precludes you from accessing the full range of edging movements.

While most people do not go out and do wedge christies in “regular skiing”, if you learn the movement patterns to do a great WC and incorporate those movement patterns into your skiing, you will see huge improvement.

Later, I want to go back to the Wedge Christie MA of me and look again at my movements and what I am missing.

 

[Nancy Hummel]

In slide 7, I see rotation at the hip, turning the femur to the inside from snapshot 1 to 4. From 3 to 4, I see a lower of the pelvis.
In slide 8, I see rotation at the hip, turning the femur to the inside from 2-4. From 3-4, I see a lower of the pelvis.
HOWEVER, ignoring what happens at the end of a turn and looking at it only from transition, which for me is my neutral point, both the rotation and the lower of pelvis happen at the same time. I mean, we are talking about turn INITIATION, right?

Edit
I can't see what's happening to the ankle, as it is in the boot.



Later, I want to go back to the Wedge Christie MA of me and look again at my movements and what I am missing.

Karlo, I looked at your WC video. You do not flatten the old outside/new inside ski at turn initiation. Why is that? I see seversl potential causes. Your inability to tip your ankles or misunderstanding of turn initiation are both potential issues.

 

[Doby Man]

I think there is often confusion between a timing lead for sequential movements and a kinesthetic lead for simultaneous movements. The hip needs to facilitate movements that are simultaneous with the feet. The ankles do not necessarily lead the hip with timing. It is intuitive to want to lead kinesthetically with the larger and more familiar muscles of the hips, however, when we do that, we are forced to self motor and self time that pattern. When we instead allow hip flexion to be a product of ground force reaction, a ground force reaction that is a product of tipping, hip flexion then becomes a kinesthetic product of tipping the ski. Muscular effort is then decreased and timing becomes “natural”. When movements up the chain occur simultaneously with movements below the chain, they are anticipatory movements to what is happening at the feet and skis. The problem that many skiers have is over reliance on the boot which results in a certain atrophy that continues to be supported by more movement up the chain. On modern equipment and soft snow, we can make some pretty nice looking turns while the feet are asleep at the wheel. And when it gets hard and icy, the lift line shrinks …

 

[karlo]

Karlo, I looked at your WC video. You do not flatten the old outside/new inside ski at turn initiation. Why is that? I see seversl potential causes. Your inability to tip your ankles or misunderstanding of turn initiation are both potential issues.

Thanks. I will respond at that thread. Easier to look at my videos too.

 

[geepers]

Why do you want to get your hip low?

Here's the reason folks are trying to get their hips low.

Paul Lorenz - the truth behind carving (or why we need to bend our skis)

Of course it's counter-productive to use the outcome as an input. When riding a push bike around a corner we incline it just enough to balance against the centripetal force from the turn. But the tires better be gripping and turning the corner.

Had to postpone one of my ski goals - hip on snow in a turn - for the time being. Produces too much temptation for a premature move to the inside. It'll happen if/when I bend the ski enough.

 

[Mike King]

Here's the reason folks are trying to get their hips low.

Paul Lorenz - the truth behind carving (or why we need to bend our skis)

Of course it's counter-productive to use the outcome as an input. When riding a push bike around a corner we incline it just enough to balance against the centripetal force from the turn. But the tires better be gripping and turning the corner.

Had to postpone one of my ski goals - hip on snow in a turn - for the time being. Produces too much temptation for a premature move to the inside. It'll happen if/when I bend the ski enough.

The Lorenz link is important, but it doesn't highlight the importance of building edge angle predominantly through tipping the legs as opposed to moving the body inside. If you are a very high level athlete, you may be able to move the body in coordination or anticipation of the edge angle you'll eventually have at the point of maximum pressure, but most of us do not have that precision in our movement patterns. When you lead with the body, you are going to most likely remove pressure from the skis. So while you might be building edge angle as a result of moving inside, you aren't bending the ski to take advantage of the edge angle. As @Doby Man says, when you build the edge angle through tipping, the body moves inside naturally while maintaining pressure on the ski so that you bend it.

In slide 7, I see rotation at the hip, turning the femur to the inside from snapshot 1 to 4. From 3 to 4, I see a lower of the pelvis.
In slide 8, I see rotation at the hip, turning the femur to the inside from 2-4. From 3-4, I see a lower of the pelvis.
HOWEVER, ignoring what happens at the end of a turn and looking at it only from transition, which for me is my neutral point, both the rotation and the lower of pelvis happen at the same time. I mean, we are talking about turn INITIATION, right?

Look at how much the lower legs are moving rather than the pelvis. The lower legs tip, the pelvis follows.

 

[François Pugh]

Simple physics, the more turn force exerted at the snow along the edge of the outside ski, the lower you have to be in order not to topple over it to the outside. You're trying to turn harder and faster, not get lower, but you will be lower.

Getting the hip down just for the sake of getting the hip down reminds me of new motorcycle riders stretching to get their knee puck on the tarmac. Hanging their adz off the bike like a monkey, instead of staying in a position of control, with at least half their adz on the seat and their head and chest in the "cockpit". Sure Valentino Rossi might hang off further (and farther) when physics dictate it's needed, but that's the exception, not the rule even for him.

 

[karlo]

This discussion by JBallou (posted previously by @rcc55125) seems to be relevant to this discussion.
https://soundcloud.com/snowpros/first-chair-how-to-take-your-skiing-from-good-to-awesome-part-2

Wish there were a PhD in skiing. I learned today that some school is now offering a minor in cannabis. Certainly, then, skiing can be a graduate study, and JB would be a graduate of the program.. In Zillertal Project, by Projected Productions, JB throws out the term tibialis anterior and sounds like he's showing off. Here, he actually demonstrates and shares understanding. I got a lot from listening to it.

Paul Lorenz has an article about this very issue.

https://www.paullorenzclinics.com/blog/hip-angulation-or-knee-angulation-or-both

This better describes my skiing and my thoughts about my hip as I ski. I'm the one, most times and unless I want to attack some terrain, as the tall, lazy one.

The platen and type writer analogy escapes me.

"The hip moves in similarly to the way the platen on a type writer moves the piece of paper laterally."

What's a type writer?

 

[geepers]

The Lorenz link is important, but it doesn't highlight the importance of building edge angle predominantly through tipping the legs as opposed to moving the body inside. If you are a very high level athlete, you may be able to move the body in coordination or anticipation of the edge angle you'll eventually have at the point of maximum pressure, but most of us do not have that precision in our movement patterns. When you lead with the body, you are going to most likely remove pressure from the skis. So while you might be building edge angle as a result of moving inside, you aren't bending the ski to take advantage of the edge angle. As @Doby Man says, when you build the edge angle through tipping, the body moves inside naturally while maintaining pressure on the ski so that you bend it.

No argument with that from me.


Just can't shake the feeling that there's something missing between JB skiing at 2:00 and then at 2:07.

 

[karlo]

Exactly. The wedge christie is not there in the exam because we use it teaching. It's a diagnostic tool to help an examiner evaluate an instructor's movement pattern precision.

That's a recent post in "Wedge Christie feedback"

Oh yeah, oh yeah. a$$ume-the-position as a diagnostic tool! Let's see those bottoms? And, precise? not aft? on the outside ski? not aft? oh, and not booting out? oh yeah. If I have to do Wedge Christie's for Level 2, then I want to see Examiners doing a$$ume-the-position.