This post is a sidebar to another thread, “How to improve skiing”,
https://www.pugski.com/threads/how-to-improve-skiing.10455/page-11
in which I raised the possibility of using a hip dump to improve skiing, a possibility to which the question was posed, why?
Here is my attempt to answer the question. Before continuing, readers are encouraged to peruse the thread, “What is a hip dump?”,
https://www.pugski.com/threads/what-is-a-hip-dump.8353
By my reading of that thread, a hip dump is a lowering of the hip to achieve edge angle, rather than using ankles and feet, accompanied by counter such that the upper body faces the outside ski. Here is a screenshot of Kathy Howe demonstrating a hip dump in her video on the subject, a video referenced by @JESinstr in “What is a hip dump?”
(Ref: “Alpine Skiing: A great coaching cue for Hip Dumping…”, Kate Howe, YouTube, Mar 4, 2011)
Here is a screenshot from a video, referenced by @razie, in that same thread, to illustrate a high level hip dump.
(Ref: “Learning to ski: carving advanced | english”, bergfex GmbH, YouTube, Sep 18, 2014)
Look familiar? Then, how about this?
(Ref: “Evolution of Mom Dancing”, with Michelle Obama, The Tonight Show Starring Jimmy Fallon, YouTube, Feb 22, 2013)
And, this?
(Ref: “Who remembers doing The Bump”, Alan Esdaile, ninebattles.com, Nov 27, 2017)
OHHH, so that's what a hip dump is!
This is not the hip dump I was thinking of for improving skiing. I was thinking of a drop of the hip that is so deep that one almost touches snow, to achieve high edge angles as high in the turn as possible, in a way that does not rely on tipping the skis with feet and ankles. The torso is projected down the hill, not countered, the skis are on set on edge way uphill of the torso; the outcome is a park-and-ride turn unless intentionally interrupted. An extreme example of such a hip dump is extreme carving,
With much thanks to @Mike King, who referenced a video posted there, I came to know of Alpine Racers of the World on Facebook, at which I discovered a video recently posted by Ted Ligety, which is yet another example of the kind of hip dump I was thinking of,
One can see that Ted is working hard to overcome his bad habit of angulating and using his feet,
Doesn't this type of hip dump look fun to you? It does to me, and I credit this type of turn for opening my eyes to what a shaped ski can do and for being a key to taking me from old style skiing on straight skis to much more dynamic skiing on modern skis. No instructor taught me. I watched the videos like a kid would and just went out to play on my own. I finally engaged an instructor, once, for a half day I think, specifying exactly what I wanted to work on, extreme carving. He wasn't thrilled, but he gave me the one tip that opened it up for me, to pull my inside foot back. With that in my pocket, off I went and I never looked back, until now of course.
What is the benefit to learning this kind of hip dump and this kind of carving?
1. One develops trust in one's skis, to grab the snow at high edge very, very high in the turn.
2. It's simple to do. One can just incline.
3. For sure, one will learn to extend the outside leg and very fully flex the inside leg.
4. We can play with one, and just one, additional movement, angulation. Try doing that turn with full inclination in small to moderate bumps. Can't be done. But, one will quickly learn that angulation is the key that opens the door, angulation and edging very early in a turn.
5. The feedback loop is most immediate. One does not need a video with which to do self-MA to know whether or not one’s got it, or whether or not more can be done, since the objective is so simple. It is like learning to ride a bike, then learning to ride it on one wheel. It is like learning to swing on a swing, higher and higher.
6. It's a ton of fun. OK, not everyone wants to ride a bike on one wheel, or swing in a swing the highest. But, it's thrilling to watch right? And, we can empathize with those that find it fun, right? And, having that type of fun is what motivates someone to go out and try, try, again, right?
I agree that this hip dump and these turns are not something one, as a professional instructor, should teach. First, with kids and the inexperienced, they would not play safe, looking both down and up the hill to ensure no one is around. For this type of turn, uphill skier had better have right-of-way, with you having the lowest rights-of-way. Second there's a lot of falling involved to get it, albeit from a low height, not something many students will appreciate. Third, these days, integrated bindings don't have the height. Without a significant riser, one would boot out.
Also, one might say, that it is not good skiing, dumping, (or dropping?) the hip to get on edge, park and ride turns; it’s just a hack. There's loss of control, mobility, nimbleness. I agree. But, I submit that there is utility in good all-mountain skiing. For example, in a side entry of a chute or gulley, skiing towards the steep opposite side, one might more ideally turn on the steep opposite side "on a dime" with this kind of hip dump, rather than slam into it with one's ski tips. Bang, hit that wall with a hip dump, setting skis high on edge, high to the slope, projecting one's upper body down-slope with the intent to re-direct to another fall line, that which is at the center of the chute. There is no rebound into another turn, so, in that respect, the turn is a park-and-ride turn. I could not find a photo or video demonstration of this example; however I did find this,
Ref: “Return of the Turn Episode 3”, 2:38, Marcus Caston, Vimeo.
In this short segment, Caston's intent, seen if one watches the video, is to shave off the top of the feature, so there is some counter there. But, one can imagine it being the side of a chute and him facing, head and torso, into the chute, having upper body oriented more like this,
Ref: "Return of the Turn Episode 2", Marcus Cason, Vimeo.
Another example of this hip dump's and this turn's utility is a quick re-direct when topping a ridge after riding across its flank, in order to ski down the top of the ridge. Towards that end, one would angulate in the air and land on a high edge set, upper body projected down the new fall line, hip close to snow, skis way uphill of the upper body. Again, the turn is a park-and-ride turn, rather than to rebound into another linked turn. I could not find a photo or video of this, but the landing would be similar to a Level 3 Dynamic Leaper,
described in greater detail at http://www.psia-c.org/dynamic-leapers. In the ridge-topping example, the landing would be more extreme, more like landing in the position Caston is in, above.
So, with this type of hip dump, if it can be called that, one can improve elements of one's skiing, both movements of one's body and understanding of a ski's capabilities, one can find utility from the skill derived, and... it is fun! Doing something fun is a great way to learn. I would never teach this dump and these turns. But, playing with friends who want to do it? Hell yeah!
Many thanks to Ted Ligety for ligetymizing hip dumping, park-and-ride, and extreme carving or fun carving or freestyle carving, or whatever one calls it. Now, let's have some fun!
https://www.pugski.com/threads/how-to-improve-skiing.10455/page-11
in which I raised the possibility of using a hip dump to improve skiing, a possibility to which the question was posed, why?
I'm curious.... why start with a big movement (hip dumping) way up the chain? Having spent time undoing hip dumping (which the OP is prone to do) with L2 and L3 candidates, I guess I just don't understand why we'd actively encourage anyone to dump.... help me out.
Here is my attempt to answer the question. Before continuing, readers are encouraged to peruse the thread, “What is a hip dump?”,
https://www.pugski.com/threads/what-is-a-hip-dump.8353
By my reading of that thread, a hip dump is a lowering of the hip to achieve edge angle, rather than using ankles and feet, accompanied by counter such that the upper body faces the outside ski. Here is a screenshot of Kathy Howe demonstrating a hip dump in her video on the subject, a video referenced by @JESinstr in “What is a hip dump?”
(Ref: “Alpine Skiing: A great coaching cue for Hip Dumping…”, Kate Howe, YouTube, Mar 4, 2011)
Here is a screenshot from a video, referenced by @razie, in that same thread, to illustrate a high level hip dump.
(Ref: “Learning to ski: carving advanced | english”, bergfex GmbH, YouTube, Sep 18, 2014)
Look familiar? Then, how about this?
(Ref: “Evolution of Mom Dancing”, with Michelle Obama, The Tonight Show Starring Jimmy Fallon, YouTube, Feb 22, 2013)
And, this?
(Ref: “Who remembers doing The Bump”, Alan Esdaile, ninebattles.com, Nov 27, 2017)
OHHH, so that's what a hip dump is!
This is not the hip dump I was thinking of for improving skiing. I was thinking of a drop of the hip that is so deep that one almost touches snow, to achieve high edge angles as high in the turn as possible, in a way that does not rely on tipping the skis with feet and ankles. The torso is projected down the hill, not countered, the skis are on set on edge way uphill of the torso; the outcome is a park-and-ride turn unless intentionally interrupted. An extreme example of such a hip dump is extreme carving,
With much thanks to @Mike King, who referenced a video posted there, I came to know of Alpine Racers of the World on Facebook, at which I discovered a video recently posted by Ted Ligety, which is yet another example of the kind of hip dump I was thinking of,
One can see that Ted is working hard to overcome his bad habit of angulating and using his feet,
Doesn't this type of hip dump look fun to you? It does to me, and I credit this type of turn for opening my eyes to what a shaped ski can do and for being a key to taking me from old style skiing on straight skis to much more dynamic skiing on modern skis. No instructor taught me. I watched the videos like a kid would and just went out to play on my own. I finally engaged an instructor, once, for a half day I think, specifying exactly what I wanted to work on, extreme carving. He wasn't thrilled, but he gave me the one tip that opened it up for me, to pull my inside foot back. With that in my pocket, off I went and I never looked back, until now of course.
What is the benefit to learning this kind of hip dump and this kind of carving?
1. One develops trust in one's skis, to grab the snow at high edge very, very high in the turn.
2. It's simple to do. One can just incline.
3. For sure, one will learn to extend the outside leg and very fully flex the inside leg.
4. We can play with one, and just one, additional movement, angulation. Try doing that turn with full inclination in small to moderate bumps. Can't be done. But, one will quickly learn that angulation is the key that opens the door, angulation and edging very early in a turn.
5. The feedback loop is most immediate. One does not need a video with which to do self-MA to know whether or not one’s got it, or whether or not more can be done, since the objective is so simple. It is like learning to ride a bike, then learning to ride it on one wheel. It is like learning to swing on a swing, higher and higher.
6. It's a ton of fun. OK, not everyone wants to ride a bike on one wheel, or swing in a swing the highest. But, it's thrilling to watch right? And, we can empathize with those that find it fun, right? And, having that type of fun is what motivates someone to go out and try, try, again, right?
I agree that this hip dump and these turns are not something one, as a professional instructor, should teach. First, with kids and the inexperienced, they would not play safe, looking both down and up the hill to ensure no one is around. For this type of turn, uphill skier had better have right-of-way, with you having the lowest rights-of-way. Second there's a lot of falling involved to get it, albeit from a low height, not something many students will appreciate. Third, these days, integrated bindings don't have the height. Without a significant riser, one would boot out.
Also, one might say, that it is not good skiing, dumping, (or dropping?) the hip to get on edge, park and ride turns; it’s just a hack. There's loss of control, mobility, nimbleness. I agree. But, I submit that there is utility in good all-mountain skiing. For example, in a side entry of a chute or gulley, skiing towards the steep opposite side, one might more ideally turn on the steep opposite side "on a dime" with this kind of hip dump, rather than slam into it with one's ski tips. Bang, hit that wall with a hip dump, setting skis high on edge, high to the slope, projecting one's upper body down-slope with the intent to re-direct to another fall line, that which is at the center of the chute. There is no rebound into another turn, so, in that respect, the turn is a park-and-ride turn. I could not find a photo or video demonstration of this example; however I did find this,
Ref: “Return of the Turn Episode 3”, 2:38, Marcus Caston, Vimeo.
In this short segment, Caston's intent, seen if one watches the video, is to shave off the top of the feature, so there is some counter there. But, one can imagine it being the side of a chute and him facing, head and torso, into the chute, having upper body oriented more like this,
Ref: "Return of the Turn Episode 2", Marcus Cason, Vimeo.
Another example of this hip dump's and this turn's utility is a quick re-direct when topping a ridge after riding across its flank, in order to ski down the top of the ridge. Towards that end, one would angulate in the air and land on a high edge set, upper body projected down the new fall line, hip close to snow, skis way uphill of the upper body. Again, the turn is a park-and-ride turn, rather than to rebound into another linked turn. I could not find a photo or video of this, but the landing would be similar to a Level 3 Dynamic Leaper,
described in greater detail at http://www.psia-c.org/dynamic-leapers. In the ridge-topping example, the landing would be more extreme, more like landing in the position Caston is in, above.
So, with this type of hip dump, if it can be called that, one can improve elements of one's skiing, both movements of one's body and understanding of a ski's capabilities, one can find utility from the skill derived, and... it is fun! Doing something fun is a great way to learn. I would never teach this dump and these turns. But, playing with friends who want to do it? Hell yeah!
Many thanks to Ted Ligety for ligetymizing hip dumping, park-and-ride, and extreme carving or fun carving or freestyle carving, or whatever one calls it. Now, let's have some fun!
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