On using hip dump to improve skiing

[karlo]

Karlo, I think you are using terms in unconventional ways and therefore not communicating clearly. Or maybe you do mean what you seem to mean. To clear this up, would you consider explaining in your own words ...

Can you describe specifically what you mean by "pain-in-the-S-turns"?
And what you mean specifically by "hip dump"?
And when you use the word "position" what is the position you refer to, specifically?

Pain in S turns: My understanding is that they are shorter turns performed along the arc of a larger turn, which of course is not actually a turn. So, each turn is relative to a different as aspect of fall line, unless of course one selects a line whose topography perfectly aligns with the larger arc, such that every turn is in the same aspect with respect to fall line. The latter is highly improbable, as the examiners will likely not be so accommodating, to agree to such a line.

Hip dump: Ok, I reverted to using that term and should not have. I meant to say, S-ume the position, as a way to distinguish good position at beginning of turn, with hip low to snow, from a hip dump, which also has hip low to snow, but accompanied by tortuous counter, and likely inside foot projected forward, com aft, all the bad things.

So, position, in the context of S-ume the position means hip low to snow, as early as possible in turn, show our bottoms to those above (but not if stupid drunk and amongst proper company), but with utmost stability of upper body, projection of upper body down the hill, balance on either or both skis. In that video, Ligety made some perfect S-ume the position turns, except when fall line was uncooperative.

Anyway, I think @markojp is on the right track and I kinda think this thread ought to close. I'm sharing my personal learning experience. Others are focused on how one should teach, or even learn, a certain way. The truth of the matter is both are right and the discussion becomes circular. So, unless someone has anything to add, I will, perhaps tomorrow, request that the moderators close this thread. I only came back to this to report my failure to focus on ankles during my recent opportunity to ski.

 

[karlo]

ah yes.... silly me. I deleted the clip.

I saw that flash momentarily on my screen. Something about varying degrees of x-S?

 

[Jamt]

Getting the hip close to the snow is not hip dumping. Getting it close to the snow in a non-functional way is hip dumping. Particularly when you get the hip closer to the snow without increasing edge angles.

There is nothing wrong with rotating the hip in counter either. The problem is when you create the counter by rotating around the subtalar joint in the ankle complex. That is the very essence of hip dumping.
There is a lot of talk about the ankle above, but I didn't see the relation to hip dumping mentioned.
The thing is that when you tip your foot it is impossible to hip dump because of how the subtalar joint is constructed.

Tipping causes rotation in the lower leg (which brings the femur with it) and rotation of the femur causes tipping. This also means that hip dumping untips the foot, i.e. non-functional.
Proper knee angulation involves simultaneous rotation in the subtalar join and around the femur head. Hip angulation should only involve the femur head.
So to summarize, always ski from the feet up first.

 

[karlo]

Getting the hip close to the snow is not hip dumping. Getting it close to the snow in a non-functional way is hip dumping. Particularly when you get the hip closer to the snow without increasing edge angles

Wow, what a great post! It should be elevated to the "what is a hip dump" thread,

Definitely, what I've been trying to describe is not a hip dump. The very point of what I'm trying to describe as s-ume the position is to put edges up high, way high, and way early in the turn. Gotta be ripping to do it, like you, in your avatar photo. There's an S-ume-the-position position if I've ever seen one. Edges high, S to the snow.

Well, that does it. I fully concede that hip dumps ought not be used as a means to improve skiing. If there's nothing more in yet one more day, I'll request closure of this thread.