NYT's article on Ikon/Epic and weekend skiing changes at some resorts

[raytseng]

Clever pun? Or Freudian slip? Or has autocorrect gained sentience, and decided it has an opinion on Mineral Basin?

Common alternate naming in the ski talk at lower level type forums. Usually because the surface conditions since its sun exposed, but also because its a trap.

 

[Green08]

Were there major mid-day problems at any lifts other than 5? They acknowledged (while of course down-playing it) that lift 5 was a big issue.

Yeah, I have to agree here. Spin and outright deception are not the same thing. They admit that there were problems. The leave out info regarding the length of the line for Chair 5--lack of information is not a lie.

Gondola One has an uphill capacity of 3600 people an hour. If they essentially cleared the line by 915 or 10am, then we are looking at 3000-4000 guests who got there around opening. Usually there are three locations to get up and out of the bases at Vail, and so far far more capacity.

If you have skied Vail before, or bothered to study the trail map, you will know that there are plenty of location that can be traps if a single lift is the only way out. Breck has some similar issues at the very bottom of Peak 9, and functionally a similar situation at Peak 7.

If Vail wants to avoid a mess like this in the future they could simply say all routes that only lead to one way back up are closed. Complain enough, and they will take away the goods until more is open.

The press release also acknowledges that there were issues with EpicMix being able to report wait times. I experienced this both Friday and Saturday at Keystone as well. That does make it sound like they did not have the ability to push a warning or wait time to guests as they might normally. They acknowledge that the attempt to position staff at trail entrances to warn about lines with ineffective.

 

[Green08]

If you want to continue your shill – I hope you’re on the payroll at a minimum.

Had I been told that lift lines were going to dissipate after an hour and took my five-year-old out there on that beta – I would be furious and I would hope that this site would buffer me from that scenario.

Last I checked- that’s how this works. I share , you share & we’re all a lil better informed.

Personal attacks--and that is what the "shill" accusation is at the end of the day--are not necessary.

And personally, If I was told I might have to wait even 30 minutes in a line with my kid, I wouldn't even bother. Lines at Disney are longer, but they build in entertainment where they can during the process. I will hand it to your 5 year old if he can get through an hour in a lift line.

Folks who skied last Friday at Vail showed up to a storm that was extremely uncommon. It overwhelmed the infrastructure and Vail's ability to open in a usual fashion. Skiers ignored the likely impact a major storm would have on operations, and then ignored warnings from staff, and then skied into a dead end section of the trail system.

You want people to share. Please respect what they share. If you are listening graciously to others on here, and read the press release in that fashion as well, you will be a lil better informed.

 

[raytseng]

The press release also acknowledges that there were issues with EpicMix being able to report wait times. I experienced this both Friday and Saturday at Keystone as well. That does make it sound like they did not have the ability to push a warning or wait time to guests as they might normally. They acknowledge that the attempt to position staff at trail entrances to warn about lines with ineffective.

They also said they'll use their social media accounts more to push critical lift wait time info which is another change. The design for wait time beta in both epicmix and pushing announcements to social media is in place; so it is just tweaks to fix bugs with the, and procedural bugs on what to announce.
Given the backlash that a COO had to get involved and write a statement, I bet they also documented a backup-backup plan for physical warning. E.G. write it on a sign and plop signs on top of the feeder lifts.

 

[Green08]

They also said they'll use their social media accounts more to push critical lift wait time info which is another change. The design for wait time beta in both epicmix and pushing announcements to social media is in place; so it is just tweaks to fix bugs with the, and procedural bugs on what to announce.
Given the backlash that a COO had to get involved and write a statement, I bet they also documented a backup-backup plan for physical warning. E.G. write it on a sign and plop signs on top of the feeder lifts.

Vail Resorts also announced they are planning on a new release of the EpicMix app. This was in their Dec earnings and forecast announcement I think. Part of “investing” in the mountains.

Patrol also could have simply roped off the trail and chosen to limit the cluster at the bottom. I don’t recall their being a bathroom down there, so they could cite environmental reasons and stream pollution I guess.

 

[Jersey Skier]

 

[Green08]

Chair 5. Which everybody, including Vail and the press release acknowledge was a problem.

Lines at Gondola One made the initial buzz from Friday morning thanks to the drone footage posted online.

 

[Green08]

This may count as thread drift:

Do Ikon and Epic result in skiers becoming something other than a true local?

An Epic Pass here in CO in particular had folks skiing Keystone early season, Breck late spring, and then options for Vail, BC, CB and Telluride in between too.

When “regulars” once had mostly just a single mountain pass it was common for them to have local knowledge and intimate understanding of their Hill.
If people are doing 20 days, but now at 3+ locations, a side effect seems like people would not know any one mountain quite as well. Regulars begin to ski and explore a resort like tourists under this scenario.

I ask the question, because it seems the classic stereotype of a “local” would have suspected these dead end locations would have been traps and simply avoided the issue.

It seems like part of this picture that I would like to hear other’s thoughts.

I have seen personally how the local situation can play out. Back in VT I mostly skied Killington and it was easy to avoid many of the worst lines just by skiing certain lifts (Superstar, Needles, Bear Quad) when others bogged down.

This year we have Keystone Plus passes because of cost ($369). A personal project has been to try and ski every lift accessed trail on the map over the course of the year. It has gotten me to branch out, and discover more about Keystone and how to get around. I have a better sense of the mountain as a result and can employ that on busy days or time when the weather is more of a factor (wind,powder, warm sun...)

 

[Lofcaudio]

Supply and demand baby! Many on here have said that they stay away from Vail-operated resorts. There is a very valid reason for that as many have personal experience that has led them to seek out different places to ski. I am presently one of those people. I last skied at a Vail spot five seasons ago (Beaver Creek). If I was in Colorado this past weekend to ski, I would have done exactly as @DanoT said...driven the extra two hours down the road to Aspen.

This weekend was a perfect storm (both literally and figuratively)...powder at Vail on a weekend...what could possibly go wrong?!?

 

[Jersey Skier]

.powder at Vail on a weekend...what could possibly go wrong?!?

Several hundred thousand people could have a free lift ticket in their pockets.

 

[raytseng]

Patrol also could have simply roped off the trail and chosen to limit the cluster at the bottom. I don’t recall their being a bathroom down there, so they could cite environmental reasons and stream pollution I guess.

There would be equal outrage from those that would complain its closed for non safety reason. They would say its my choice to go down. And what would be the wait time cutoff for them to close the area 30min wait? 1hr? 2hrs?
Giving the info, and letting ppl choose seems like the best policy. The guy with skins seemed to know what to do.

Only if it pushes against closing time would this seem like an absolute policy. If the area was clear before 3:30 then it seems like things sorted out.

 

[Nathanvg]

I'm still not sure it does. Were there major mid-day problems at any lifts other than 5? They acknowledged (while of course down-playing it) that lift 5 was a big issue.

Apparently yes, the picture below is lift 7.

What are the facts:
1. Lift 5 had 2 hour lines
2. Gondola One had long lines in the morning, likely 1 hour or more. I suspect the other gondola had the same issue but maybe not as bad.
3. Lift 7 had long lines, likely 1 hour or more
4. Other lift lines unknown

I ski Vail a lot but I was not there that day. My rule of thumb is to only ski down to lift 5 before 9:30 on a normal powder day. Crowds were higher last week due to huge snowfall and many other lifts being closed. The fact lift 7 had crazy lines was more of surprise but with a lot of lifts closed, not unexpected. I'm not sure what Vail could have done that day. I suppose they could have closed all terrain served by lift 5 and 7 but that likely would have made other lines worse.

Longer term, lift 7 is due for an upgrade and is planned although timeline seems to keep moving. Lift 5 always gets slammed on powder days but is fine most of the time. It probably should have been a six man.

 

[SBrown]

This may count as thread drift:

Do Ikon and Epic result in skiers becoming something other than a true local?

An Epic Pass here in CO in particular had folks skiing Keystone early season, Breck late spring, and then options for Vail, BC, CB and Telluride in between too.

When “regulars” once had mostly just a single mountain pass it was common for them to have local knowledge and intimate understanding of their Hill.
If people are doing 20 days, but now at 3+ locations, a side effect seems like people would not know any one mountain quite as well. Regulars begin to ski and explore a resort like tourists under this scenario.

I ask the question, because it seems the classic stereotype of a “local” would have suspected these dead end locations would have been traps and simply avoided the issue....

I have heard this is the case at some places, but I wouldn't think so for Vail, since Epic Pass has been around for a long while. I think it could be valid when Ikon types visit new areas, though. And other resorts in general: I was chatting on the lift with a NM native last year at Taos, and asking him about crowds and stuff. It was Texas week. He said they don't mind them so much because they don't ski where the locals want to ski. We interlopers from Colorado, though! We can actually ski, and get into their stashes (not all of them, too scary at Taos unless you know where you are going....). That is kind of an opposite issue from the Ikon gaper thing, though.

 

[Tricia]

I haven't read this whole thread, so I can't speak to the big picture, but I've been hearing that Arapahoe Basin is much better since getting off Epic and going IKON.

 

[Green08]

There would be equal outrage from those that would complain its closed for non safety reason.

I agree that Vail probably did not have any options without major downsides. Opening, closing, all of it, some of it....it was all a losing proposition one way or another.

That Friday at Keystone, while it only snowed 11 inches overnight, it was possible to get in 3-4 powder laps. Lift issues there were all related to wind, and nobody seemed to be arguing with management about infrastructure limitations on that end of things.

 

[Green08]

I haven't read this whole thread, so I can't speak to the big picture, but I've been hearing that Arapahoe Basin is much better since getting off Epic and going IKON.

That is everything I have heard as well.

I have yet to hear complaints about crowds from folks you regularly ski Granby, Cooper, Sunlight, Arapahoe Basin, Loveland, or Monarch. Most of those places have season passes in the same price range, and agreements that essentially expand the pass with some limited multi resort benefits.

There are places to go to avoid lines--and I would argue even on Epic, that Keystone has the size, trails, and lifts to handle the crowds without big waits

 

[Green08]

That is kind of an opposite issue from the Ikon gaper thing, though.

I was thinking less about gapers.

My curiosity is regarding folks who have Epic or Ikon. Like yourself. You have posted from Aspen, Copper, spoken of Taos...granted you get in more days than the average skier (which I still think is something like 6-10 days with a season pass).

If spend all your time at one resort, you get to know the terrain, lifts, and crowd flow very well. You know where to go usually to maximize your time. But, that wisdom is build from experience. A multi-resort pass thins out the days at any one resort, and I would believe makes it harder to know those details intimately.

I would present myself at Breck as an example. I have skied there more than a few times. But there are folks on here who know about things like mine test pits in the trees. I wonder if that kind of intimate knowledge becomes harder to gain, and therefore the frequent skier is not spreading out into the hidden nooks of a resort on a crowded day, nearly as much as they may have in the past.

 

[SBrown]

I was thinking less about gapers.

My curiosity is regarding folks who have Epic or Ikon. Like yourself. You have posted from Aspen, Copper, spoken of Taos...granted you get in more days than the average skier (which I still think is something like 6-10 days with a season pass).

If spend all your time at one resort, you get to know the terrain, lifts, and crowd flow very well. You know where to go usually to maximize your time. But, that wisdom is build from experience. A multi-resort pass thins out the days at any one resort, and I would believe makes it harder to know those details intimately.

I would present myself at Breck as an example. I have skied there more than a few times. But there are folks on here who know about things like mine test pits in the trees. I wonder if that kind of intimate knowledge becomes harder to gain, and therefore the frequent skier is not spreading out into the hidden nooks of a resort on a crowded day, nearly as much as they may have in the past.

And I think you are probably right about Ikon at this point but not Epic ... around here, multipasses have been a thing for a while, just not as many places as are on it now. I imagine most people (I'm speaking of CO) still stick mostly to one place but branch out for a couple trips elsewhere. I don't think most Ikon Front Rangers will have an even split between, say, WP and Copper. Don't really know, though -- but someone does! lol

 

[raytseng]

A lot of that is so personality based I dont think you can make a general rule that it is based on skidays and therefore on multipass

Some people personalities are not explorers and like do the same thing over and over again and never change their routine. They may only try something new when forced.
Others want to explore and try new things.
On a different axis, some may go with the flow, and not care to have a set plan, others may study and plan ahead, read resort guides, analyze scenarios and have a need to optimize things for the best experience.
Ironically, the optimizers may not be explorers and get stuck within a local minimum and never try (or retry) something potentially better.
The above maybe the natural rate of gaining experience. But that has the assumption that gaining knowledge and experience is solely a function of time.

Some might ski solo and pick up knowledge at their own pace and methodically learn a place. Others are more social people and ski in groups or chat up strangers on the lifts to gain knowledge. They may also get pushed out of their comfort zone from new blood in their group. You can overhear even locals who have decade+ in their home mtn sometimes say i just skied with X, they showed me a new line i never skied before. I've heard mountain hosts at least 2times who've been semirandomly paired up say this.

If you had 7different local guides to take you on 7different days, you may pick up more knowledge in 7days vs a whole season skiing solo.
Those that go to other resorts or split their days maybe more explorers and the trip may expose them to new ideas that they end up using locally. Like maybe they do first hike-to on a trip, then they start doing that locally.

 

[dbostedo]

Apparently yes, the picture below is lift 7.

Ah... thanks for that. I didn't recognize it. And Game Creek bowl that it's in is another terrain funnel, so that makes some sense. It wasn't acknowledged in that statement from Vail - perhaps it was a problem for less time, or only a 45 minute lift line and they only wanted to address the ones over an hour or something... no idea. But that is an omission, other than the general acknowledgement that they had lift line issues.