NYT's article on Ikon/Epic and weekend skiing changes at some resorts

[Ron]

For Some Resorts, Multi-Mountain Passes Mean Crowded Slopes and Longer Lift Lines (Published 2020)

The popularity of IKON and Epic passes have ski resorts cutting off weekend sales at the windows and warning crowds on social media to stay home.

www.nytimes.com

more information on Ikon and Epic, its impact on the ski industry and how some resorts are changing to accommodate the super passes . Just for the record, I love my Ikon pass.

 

[dbostedo]

The real question is what resorts will do about it next season or in coming seasons I think... how many will go the A-Basin route and move to really reduce crowds? Theoretically, no matter how much people b#$%h, if the resort is still crowded, they're probably doing well financially. So which resorts will ignore the bad publicity (and customer experience) and which will choose to do something about it?

The passes could also adjust their restricted pass level to accommodate more options as well. Maybe Ikon could do something like have some resorts at 5 days base (7 full), some at 10 base (15 full), and some at unlmiited, for instance.

And how many resorts might "fight back" by going the other way and offering cheap day tickets as a way to get skiers to not have to worry about a pass and sell themselves on cost, simplicity, and being able to wait to see how the snow is?

 

[HardDaysNight]

Rob Katz, Vail Resorts’ chief executive, said...
“We’re not on as much of a yo-yo anymore,” but managing the additional crowds “requires a tremendous amount of thought.”

He should start, thinking that is, without further delay!

 

[Mister Tea]

It's very hard to make predictions, especially about the future.

But something's got to give - I don't think the current state of prohibitively expensive day tickets (north of $200 a day at name resorts and over $100 at some midwestern molehills) and insanely cheap mega passes (less than $20/day) is sustainable. Market forces should narrow that gap.

But what do I know? I don't run a ski area, let alone a conglomerate that runs dozens. So, I'll just happily ski for peanuts while the industry is being subsidized by those paying walk-up window prices. And I'll dodge the crowds by skiing midweek and at other off-peak times.

 

[Brian Finch]

Here’s my hawt take- it’s not about the passes.

In recent years getting visa’s for overseas employees has been more complicated, mega mergers have place downward pressures on mountains to staff efficiently, the economy is good- so lesser ppl want/need to work at ski areas & profit is king- so the temptation is always there for Mtn Ops to ‘save costs’- all this leads to bottlenecks & weekend challenges.

I shared my thoughts with a _______ GM recently & the mega defensive response told me I may be onto something.

 

[EricG]

In recent years getting visa’s for overseas employees has been more complicated, mega mergers have place downward pressures on mountains to staff efficiently, the economy is good- so lesser ppl want/need to work at ski areas & profit is king-

This is impacting several other parts of the hospitality industry too.

 

[Erik Timmerman]

Here’s my hawt take- it’s not about the passes.

In recent years getting visa’s for overseas employees has been more complicated, mega mergers have place downward pressures on mountains to staff efficiently, the economy is good- so lesser ppl want/need to work at ski areas & profit is king- so the temptation is always there for Mtn Ops to ‘save costs’- all this leads to bottlenecks & weekend challenges.

I shared my thoughts with a _______ GM recently & the mega defensive response told me I may be onto something.

It sure doesn't seem like there is any shortage of J1s here! Unlimited supply is what it looks like.

 

[SBrown]

Here’s my hawt take- it’s not about the passes.

In recent years getting visa’s for overseas employees has been more complicated, mega mergers have place downward pressures on mountains to staff efficiently, the economy is good- so lesser ppl want/need to work at ski areas & profit is king- so the temptation is always there for Mtn Ops to ‘save costs’- all this leads to bottlenecks & weekend challenges.

I shared my thoughts with a _______ GM recently & the mega defensive response told me I may be onto something.

Yes but ...

That has nothing to do with parking areas filling up by 9 am. That capacity was already there, and was enough for many previous years.

 

[scott43]

It sure doesn't seem like there is any shortage of J1s here! Unlimited supply is what it looks like.

From Wiki..
"A J-1 visa is a non-immigrant visa issued by the United States to research scholars, professors and exchange visitors participating in programs that promote cultural exchange, especially to obtain medical or business training within the U.S. "

Heh..doesn't mention artificially low labour rates to increase profitability..however..maybe "business training" means how to exploit foreign labour loopholes..

 

[Started at 53]

Ikon is great for Deer Valley, we are feeling no impact... Lift lines don’t exist and the runs are empty

 

[Erik Timmerman]

 

[Tricia]

Ikon is great for Deer Valley, we are feeling no impact... Lift lines don’t exist and the runs are empty

I was at Deer Valley this past week for the Freestyle WC. While I had 2 lift lines that were insanely bad. (30 minutes each) I quickly found my way to terrain and lifts that were less than 5 minute wait, and one that I skied onto the chair for 6 or 7 laps until it was time to head back to the office.
I'm pretty sure that the avalanche issues in LCC were a big factor.

 

[Andy Mink]

While I had 2 lift lines that were insanely bad. (30 minutes each)

Keeping in mind that 20-30 minute lines were not uncommon before high speed detachables.

 

[4aprice]

My observation. I have a pass at an area that's not on a mega pass yet. Guess what?, between Christmas and Presidents Day on the weekends they have lines and probably (I say probably because I'm there early and it does not affect me) have some parking issues. Since it is fairly close to 2 major metropolitan areas, when ever it snows in the city and suburbs, even it it doesn't hit the mountain too much, it gets super busy.

I also have an Ikon pass. Used it for the first time this year last weekend in Northern New England. Mt Ellen Saturday with fresh snow was busy but I didn't think it was over run. There were lines at GMX at the start of the day because it seemed like that was the only lift they had spinning early but once the other lifts opened at 9 things seemed fine and I don't think we waited more then 5 min at any lift all day. I have to say I was surprised when departing at 3 to see they had obviously filled the lots and were parking down the access road. Just never seemed that busy. Killington on Sunday was pretty much empty.

I've been skiing for over 50 years and have to agree with Andy's comment above. Things were much worse in the past. I remember 45 min-1 hr waits for fixed grip doubles back in the 70's.

My real point is this. I don't doubt that some areas are feeling the impact of the mega pass but I don't think its a permanent thing. This weekend is Presidents Day. Pretty sure its going to be pretty busy no matter where you go. (BTW I would love to hear about areas that are empty due to everyone being on mega passes and at Epic/Ikon resorts. I know on MLK weekend I heard of several resorts not on mega passes turning people away due crowding and parking issues) But on the bright side Spring Training starts this week, High School winter sports are in their playoff and championship weeks and soon spring sports will take over. My experience has benn that the crowds (maybe slowly at first) tend to become less and less and the experience more and more enjoyable.

OTOH I do not doubt many of the issues that many are complaining about even though they really aren't affecting me. I do think there is room for these passes to be "tweaked" and made better for all involved. 4 years ago we bought the Max Pass for the 1st time and we never heard the complaints we do now with Ikon. I thought the season pass with the"add-on feature" was a something that seemed to work well for many. Ikon must have all the data on that seeing as they basically took over Max Pass. Regardless for a skier like me these passes are a great travel tool and I hope they will continue in the future.

After this weekend my local season is pretty much wrapping up and I will be doing Ikon days in Northern New England and out west till late April. Last year I really saw nothing (outside of posted pictures) in the way of crowds at this time of year. Will be interesting to see if anything is different this season.

 

[EricG]

The hospitality industry should be using the H-2B program to fill seasonal work. But the program has fairly low seasonal caps on the number of visas available. So the inclusion (& exploitation) of J-1 holders is a separate issue as this group has a fairly high cap and resorts can easily recruit this group at a very low cost.

 

[Erik Timmerman]

It is the mega-pass. Try to rationalize that is something else if you want, but it is the mega-pass. Stowe was crowded as heck last year during our first year of being integrated to the empire. We had a record snow year and on a few days had Epic Gridlock coming up to the mountain. This year we are having a low snow season, and Epic Gridlock has become routine and expected. Supposedly we have already had more guests this year than in all of last year. Two weekends ago it was taking 4 hours to drive the 8 miles from the village to the resort on good (but not great) roads. Last weekend they were telling people to turn around and go home. The only difference is millions more Epic passes from all of the Peak Resorts.

 

[lisamamot]

Stowe is unlimited on Epic so I have no doubt that has a huge impact there.

That said, social media posts were skewering Sunday River and IKON last weekend. View from where we start (Barker since that is where our locker is) - we got there at 7:30 last Saturday which was a little late for us, and all regular lot rows were full, but an attendant parked us in a side slot. We booted up and were 4th chair with no lines for several runs. The lot issue that day was the race; the race vans clearly monopolized the parking lot and I expect race parents did as well. Full parking lot, but no one skiing initially at that lift spoke volumes. It was a busy weekend overall with new snow and special events being held too. Saturdays are always crazy, Sundays better, and the midweek days I get to ski are bliss.

The unlimited mega pass mountains must be experiencing a large impact due to the passes, but I have a hard time believing that IKON participation at Sunday River (5 or 7 days based on the pass level) is the volume culprit here.

 

[Andy Mink]

Stowe is unlimited on Epic so I have no doubt that has a huge impact there.

Is Epic the only pass at Stowe now?

 

[Erik Timmerman]

Is Epic the only pass at Stowe now?

Yes.

 

[KevinF]

It is the mega-pass. Try to rationalize that is something else if you want, but it is the mega-pass. Stowe was crowded as heck last year during our first year of being integrated to the empire. We had a record snow year and on a few days had Epic Gridlock coming up to the mountain. This year we are having a low snow season, and Epic Gridlock has become routine and expected. Supposedly we have already had more guests this year than in all of last year. Two weekends ago it was taking 4 hours to drive the 8 miles from the village to the resort on good (but not great) roads. Last weekend they were telling people to turn around and go home. The only difference is millions more Epic passes from all of the Peak Resorts.

I can't imagine what this weekend is going to be like... MA and NY school vacation week is starting, the storm of the season (so far at least...) just rolled through. What a shame my pass is blacked out and I won't get to "enjoy".

I was coming up Mountain Road on Saturday and I hit the backup next to where Pinnacle used to be -- at 7:00am. (I sound like a local; "turn right past where the post office used to be"). Even Sunday -- which I naively thought would be relatively quiet as it was 15 below in the morning -- was packed.