Lower the edge angles in the steeps

[Rod9301]

Which is why one of the most challenging conditions is steep, narrow and frozen, but not smooth, with lots of ridges, uneven frozen snow, etc.

This makes smearing very harsh.

 

[markojp]

Which is why one of the most challenging conditions is steep, narrow and frozen, but not smooth, with lots of ridges, uneven frozen snow, etc.

This makes smearing very harsh.

but hooking it also isn't an option. Choosing another day and different conditions is, but sometimes the shooting schedule sets the tactical agenda .

 

[jimtransition]

Going to have to disagree with a few points here, edging in the last third of the turn is not going to cause acceleration, it causes friction and therefore controls speed, on a truely steep slope you can't just be sliding down the fall line on flat skis, for starters skidding in powder is super tricky when it's variable. A good edge set at the end of the turn sets you up for the next initiation as well, you can't hop turn off a sliding ski. For skiing smooth windbuff on open slopes, sure drift down the fall line, but I can't imagine how anyone could ski steep snow with a crust without a good edge to finish the turn.

Here's one of the steeper, tighter chutes in Portillo, I wish I skied it more fluidly, but I definitely needed the grip at the end of the turn to control my speed.

 

[Superbman]

Sorry FP. You really need to stop spouting this nonsense.


This is what Dan is talking about... great skier, low edge angles... no hooking up on the face of the King in the conditions Ingrid is skiing:

This just reminds me of how much I loved Crystal Mountain. It's the secret bad ass ski area that hides in plain sight but nobody talks about. In terms of the amount and accessibility of steep, steep, expert terrain it belongs in the same discussion as Snowbird, Jackson, etc. Ingrid does nicely demo the soft-edge finish to a steep terrain turn (of course!).

 

[François Pugh]

This just in! Lower edge angles skid more!
in a related story, new study proves skidding loses more speed than arching.

Who knew?

OK, maybe some folk need to have pointed out that the slope makes the same ski edge angle relative to the vertical have a bigger edge angle relative to the snow at the bottom of the turn.

 

[JESinstr]

This just reminds me of how much I loved Crystal Mountain. It's the secret bad ass ski area that hides in plain sight but nobody talks about. In terms of the amount and accessibility of steep, steep, expert terrain it belongs in the same discussion as Snowbird, Jackson, etc. Ingrid does nicely demo the soft-edge finish to a steep terrain turn (of course!).

When my boys were in their teens we took a trip out to Crystal just after New Years. Lucky to get rooms at a place at the end of the access road. Ice storm in Seattle. We had the mountain to ourselves. Remember heading into the Bear Pit! Super mountain.

 

[Wasatchman]

I'm enjoying this thread.

Actually reinforces something I was taught that surprised me at the time.

Racers actually carve to get MORE speed and not less in many instances. Maybe those experts can comment more on this to bring the point home about low angle on the steeps.

 

[jimmy]

From a practicality point of view for everyday skiers, carving on steep terrain should not be the goal, nice to achieve cool for the pros to demonstrate but not the ideal for skiers expanding their experience on new terrain. We have over taught carving when it comes to all mountain skiing.

I agree, but there’s another layer here. At its base, carving is about edge control and balance, primarily on the outside ski. The same skills allow drifting, smearing, call it what you will, on steep terrain and the basic movement patterns (fine edge control through foot, ankle and knee action; balancing movements involving angulation and counter, etc.) are the same too. You will never show me a skier who can do what you recommend in the steeps but can not carve clean arcs on appropriate terrain because the same fundamental skills underlie both. I’d agree that the skill to brush and drift the edge on steep terrain is more challenging which is why fewer have mastered it!

I struggled to get rid of a sequential edge change. Part of the solution for me was to start every turn as if i intended to make a carved turn, railroad tracks. I'm not making railroad tracks in powder, crud or on steeps but i like to feel that (almost) each turn, edgy or not so much, starts the same way.

 

[Rod9301]

I struggled to get rid of a sequential edge change. Part of the solution for me was to start every turn as if i intended to make a carved turn, railroad tracks. I'm not making railroad tracks in powder, crud or on steeps but i like to feel that (almost) each turn, edgy or not so much, starts the same way.

Right, they all start with relaxing and tipping the downhill leg

You then can different the stance leg edge angle from the ankle.

 

[slowrider]

Carving steep groomed icy runs is my goal. I'm not there yet and probably never will be.

 

[James]

Carving on 45 deg slopes? Get real. The speed after one turn would be enormous. Jeremie Heitz may do it on faces without exposure in the Alps. He's doing like 50-60 mph. Very few in the world have the skills, strength, and mindset to pull that off.

FWT extreme skiers are not linking carved turns. When they do they slash and drift to slow down. You've got to hit your spots or backups or get seriously hurt.

There's time to link turns and times to finish a turn with zero energy.

 

[skibob]

Enjoying this discussion. Something that I think hasn't yet been discussed explicitly is where the lateral pressure in the boot is--heel or shin (or centered). I am going to leave it there and let those more knowledgeable than me take it from there if relevant.

 

[Bad Bob]

Interesting thread.

Our little group gets so focused on carving that sometimes we need to be reminded of some basic truths. Thanks Dan.

Skiing is not just carving or powder or groomers or bumps. Your attitude as well as your intent play into what you do on a run and how you ski it. Variables like snow conditions, terrain, attitude, intent, and skiers skill set determine the turn.

A low edge angle skidded (swiveled/slarved/pivoted, pick your title) turn works very well and there is nothing wrong with them. You'll see WC racers do this every week during course inspections. For a newer skier they will build some skills to add to the tool box. For somebody with a wider selection of skills they can sharpen those tools.

Bottom line is do not let yourself be a one trick pony with your skiing, no matter how pretty your pony might be.

 

[HardDaysNight]

I struggled to get rid of a sequential edge change. Part of the solution for me was to start every turn as if i intended to make a carved turn, railroad tracks. I'm not making railroad tracks in powder, crud or on steeps but i like to feel that (almost) each turn, edgy or not so much, starts the same way.

Exactly right. What a great insight for people to learn from! Edge angle control comes from subtle foot and ankle movements which enable one to drift, skid or carve as required, not from twisting and hucking the skis around (unless, of course, the shit hits the fan and all bets are off!). In other words, learn to carve really, really well on appropriate terrain - it absolutely is a foundational skill and there is no substitute for developing that ability and no really good skier I’ve ever encountered couldn’t do it and do it well. But it’s the start, not the end.

 

[jimtransition]

I'm enjoying this thread.

Actually reinforces something I was taught that surprised me at the time.

Racers actually carve to get MORE speed and not less in many instances. Maybe those experts can comment more on this to bring the point home about low angle on the steeps.

I don't think anyone is advocating carving on steep chutes, it's impossible. 'Edge' does not necessarily mean carving, a high edge angle can be a hop turn in the steeps. Without that platform you can't make the next hop/transition.

 

[tch]

The one thing I'm having trouble with here is that, on the surface and somewhat misread, Dan's advice sounds a little bit like it condones the crappy skiing I see every day at my local slopes: unskilled skiers flailing downhill way too fast, flipping their skis side to side to skid first one way and then the other.

I get that the post was intended to explain that too much edge in certain circumstances creates problems that a brushed/skidded/controlled side-slip turn can remedy...but, I don't want more unprepared skiers thinking they're ready to take on even more challenge when they're not. In the old days, my jerk brother-in-law used to claim he was "skiing parallel" when he was simply making consecutive alternate-side skids (note that he didn't even have enough edge control to make a complete hockey stop).

 

[Mendieta]

The one thing I'm having trouble with here is that, on the surface and somewhat misread, Dan's advice sounds a little bit like it condones the crappy skiing I see every day at my local slopes: unskilled skiers flailing downhill way too fast, flipping their skis side to side to skid first one way and then the other.

I get that the post was intended to explain that too much edge in certain circumstances creates problems that a brushed/skidded/controlled side-slip turn can remedy...but, I don't want more unprepared skiers thinking they're ready to take on even more challenge when they're not. In the old days, my jerk brother-in-law used to claim he was "skiing parallel" when he was simply making consecutive alternate-side skids (note that he didn't even have enough edge control to make a complete hockey stop).

In the context this was written, by an extreme skier who is also a hall of famer, talking in the first sentence about "the steeps" with a picture of a steep, natural terrain descent ... i didn't see any connection to the skiers you are referring to.

Oh, and sorry about your brother in law

 

[Rod9301]

I don't think anyone is advocating carving on steep chutes, it's impossible. 'Edge' does not necessarily mean carving, a high edge angle can be a hop turn in the steeps. Without that platform you can't make the next hop/transition.

Any time you have to make hop turns (pedal turns) in a steep, thought couloir, you land on a soft edge, and gradually increase it as you feel in perfect balance, then you start the next turn.

In firm conditions, you might slide straight firm for 10 ft or more before you're ready for the next turn.

 

[jimtransition]

Any time you have to make hop turns (pedal turns) in a steep, thought couloir, you land on a soft edge, and gradually increase it as you feel in perfect balance, then you start the next turn.

In firm conditions, you might slide straight firm for 10 ft or more before you're ready for the next turn.

Sure, sometimes, but you need the high edge angle to grip at the end of the turn, which isn't what the OP advocates. I don't have tonnes of footage of skiing firm chutes, but in this video in the second line I do a hop turn right above the mandatory cliff at the end, if I had done it without landing on a high edge angle I would probably have been in hospital.

 

[James]

That's not the point of the op. He's really refering to the edge angle coming in to the transition in linked turns on steeps. Nothing to do with hop turns. It's generally accepted that one wouldn't drift off a cliff intentionally. Especially for a misinterpretation.
But ok, I get it. Nice skiing!