Lower the edge angles in the steeps

[Goose]

Less edge will enable you to skid down the fall line without going forward. Skidding is friction, which slows you down.

But even better, go try it.

Think of carving arc-2-arc versus short radius turns in moguls. Although many may not realize it, it is dragging your edges through the snow that slows you down. Arc-2-Arc carving takes your velocity and changes the direction while losing as little speed as possible. Now consider soft snow with continuum between pure carving on the base and smearing. Too much edge angle brings you closer to just changing direction with almost no speed loss, versus dragging your edges through the snow and losing speed.

Both the above is basically what Im saying when I mention a combo of skid/carve on steeper slope. I really didn't think there was another way to slow down. I mean to me this seems normal or common. But is that all the OP was truly getting at? Slowing down doesn't mean going across as that is just a direction change. That even holds true for one at the early stages who is still somewhat snow plowing. Except of course when in that pizza position both skis are indeed skidding all the time and so going across does work better. Slowing down actually means moving slower. In order to do that, some amount of skidding or hockey stopping would need to be incorporated into the turn. Although technically if we hypothetically had enough width and we kept going across we would eventually slow down. Hence why the pizza plower at his already slower speed and with the constant skidding can slow down quite a bit.

The Op mentions thigh burn. Im not really sure how you apply some skidding friction without also using the legs to absorb a chunk of that. If one skids enough to create enough friction, the legs are going to feel that imo either way. If not creating enough friction in the skid for the legs to feel, then we probably not slowing down much.
That's one the things that can seem confusing about it all.

In an nut shell,....it seems what being discussed is pure clean carving vs incorporating sliding/skid (or not) into it in order to control speed. The pure carve is going to keep or even increase speed unless the width is so very wide and outside of that will certainly burn the legs if we try to go even deeper on edge and yet never really slow us down. The partial carve/skid is going to also burn the thighs imo especially if we are using some sort of small partial hockeystops. Of course the partial hockey stops can also lead one to hop over which is another way to burn the thighs...lol yet not necessarily slow down much. . In the end it seems the easiest way to control descent speed is to combo the carve with the skid at different percentages for the desired speed.

If that is basically what the OP is suggesting Im kind of surprised most would not already know this or at least be doing it even if unknowingly. It makes me wonder or question if what he is describing has a lot more to it than simply this or that what we are saying is not the same thing that he was trying to get across to us.

 

[Goose]

On steep slopes, I'm not concerned about speed preservation. Ultimate gravity acceleration (free fall) is only a step away from the slope.

Not sure I even get that. Unless your referring to skiing skinny steepest terrain in which cliffs are just a few steps to either side. Not sure who is ever carving in that scenario anyway.

 

[CalG]

Not sure I even get that. Unless your referring to skiing skinny steepest terrain in which cliffs are just a few steps to either side. Not sure who is ever carving in that scenario anyway.

Goose

When the slope is steep, a single step away from the mountain can be the start of a significant elevation change. Free fall for several feet, and not much to slow one down for 10s of yards. 45-55 "dee-gree' s is steep!.

 

[Goose]

Goose

When the slope is steep, a single step away from the mountain can be the start of a significant elevation change. Free fall for several feet, and not much to slow one down for 10s of yards. 45-55 "dee-gree' s is steep!.

Ok but then where is/what is the correlation with not concerning about speed. The offered advice from the OP topic pertains to wanting or needing to control speed. How/what is the relevance when posting about not concerning of it?

 

[CalG]

Goose

For me, when the details regarding edging vs less edging turn to maintaining speed (post #59 and others) , I reflect on the many situations where there is such surplus potential energy available that giving away a small amount of "speed" in order to enjoy so many other aspects of the ski experience. Every effort includes some trade off. I will gladly give away some speed in the moment, knowing speed can be easily reclaimed.

So on steep terrain, I am NOT CONCERNED about maintaining speed based on the degree of edging.

I wrote "preserving" and "maintaining speed. You have written "controlling speed". That could be the disconnect.

 

[CalG]

Jim, the OP is an extrememly experienced, well know, and highly regarded professional free skier who's made a name and a living for himself because of his skill set. We'd be wiser to listen and test rather than rush to judgement. From a coaching point of view, in truly steep terrain, we see people doing the J turn and slamming on the brakes with big edge angles (yes, this slows the skier down, buuuut.....), then having to unwind with a big 'up' or shoulder/upper body twist to get skis off edge. These big moves invariably compromise fluid, functional balance and the ability to move at will, with much smaller, more efficient and effective movements over the outside foot and down the hill. I could probably find clips of Ingrid skiing the same terrain on a powder day and it would be tactically very different. In the clip, it's firm and scratchy. I can tell you from experience you need your show calm, wired tight, and windows rolled up in that terrain in those conditions. She's moving purposely and fluidly. I think most here would be soiling their pants in the same place in those conditions.

Getting back to the point of the original post, people who think they need big angles in transisiton are almost always back and in. They're throwing on the brakes hoping they'll catch up their skis. When one is truly and effectively over the outside ski at transition, there's no need for high edge angles. Now let's take that idea to racing. Show me high edge angles in transistion, and I'll show you a very slow racer. Highest edge angles occur at apex, even off piste, even in steep terrain. This thread is a prime example of people talking past each other because we're all wrapped up in our local reality and specific interests. FP thinks his steep is the same as what the OP is talking about and Ingrid is skiing. It's not. It's much steeper than anything in Ontario or Mt. Washington on Vancouver Island. Harald Harb would have to vary his dirt and tactics to ski this, and I'm sure he could, but he'd look a bit different than at Vail. Meanwhile, those who can both tip and rip on lower angled terrain AND flow down very steep terrain prove again and again skiing is about versatility. It's never 'either/or' as some here seem to always suggest. It's all of the above. Everything and then some. The whole tool box. That's the difference between pretty good skiing and true 'expert' stuff. Folks like D. Rahlves do it all.

Steeper than Tucks?

 

[river-z]

One of the small details in the original post that helped me this week in steep powder was to put weight on both skis at the end of the turn .... into a skid/carve/surf (depending on the situation) ... and around to the next turn.

 

[Goose]

Goose

For me, when the details regarding edging vs less edging turn to maintaining speed (post #59 and others) , I reflect on the many situations where there is such surplus potential energy available that giving away a small amount of "speed" in order to enjoy so many other aspects of the ski experience. Every effort includes some trade off. I will gladly give away some speed in the moment, knowing speed can be easily reclaimed.

So on steep terrain, I am NOT CONCERNED about maintaining speed based on the degree of edging.

I wrote "preserving" and "maintaining speed. You have written "controlling speed". That could be the disconnect.

Yes....lol, my bad. I misunderstood you. Think I'll pour myself a whiskey and get my brain fart fixed.

 

[CalG]

Yes....lol, my bad. I misunderstood you. Think I'll pour myself a whiskey and get my brain fart fixed.

I'll do the same!, in mutual respect for discourse and passion for snow!

 

[oldschoolskier]

Most skiers think that they can slow down by edging more on the steeps, but the opposite is true. A high edge angle at the end of a turn will scoot the ski forward and often cause the skier to become out of balance. Combine this with some tension or stress and a tense downhill leg situation can worsen because the skier is moving away from the fall line instead of embracing it.

Although it is true that edging with giving you grip, it will also cause the skis to travel across the fall line rather than down it, thus creating a false sense of security because when traverse across a steep slope you are often out of position for the next turn.

Simple fact, edging in the last third of the turn is acceleration because when you pressure on the ski edge in the in that part of the turn, you will accelerate across the slope. When this happens, the skier typically has not enough pressure on the uphill ski, and this causes even more instability, this will also result in hesitation to make the next turn especially if the terrain is intimidating.

A typical situation is as follows; a skier enters onto a steep slope with a traverse. Because of the pitch, they are slightly aft of center, as they come into the turn with their hips behind their feet, the skis accelerate down the fall line, and the skier immediately puts the skis hard on their edges thinking it will slow them down only to accelerate across the fall line. They repeat this a few times and low and behold their thighs are burning, and the confidence is low.

So what is the fix? It is simple, edge less on the steeps and allow the skis to drift down the fall line rather than traverse across it. Try this; add some pressure to the uphill ski at the end of the turn so that the feet are closer together. This will create a more balanced stance and will release the edge of the down hill ski, and the result will be controlled deceleration in the fall line.

Drifting down the fall line will also lengthen the turn, which will increase stability. Plus while standing on both skis, the skier will feel more comfortable moving into the next turn. As well as balance will improve as will confidence.

Here the few things to remember next time you head out onto the steeps. Start on a steep groomed slope. Stand tall with your shoulders over your feet and your feet under your hips. Then lower the edge angle of the skis to create more surface area on the snow and slide down the hill. Now with some momentum allow the skis to drift down the fall line rather than traversing across it and make a turn.

Do this for three or four turns then add some edge to grip and stop. Repeat. Once comfortable head off to some steep smooth slopes and practice, the goal is a series of smooth medium length turns at a consistent speed with little to no acceleration between turns.

I tell skiers of all abilities that deceleration happens best over a series of turns. Think of it as slow, slower, slowest, stop. When you slow down over a series of turns you are more apt to stay in balance and better manage your control in varied terrain.

The result will be more confident View attachment 69636 as you explore more steep terrain on the mountain.

Had to read this several times and you point out correctly the issue. On steeps novice skiers lean “INTO” the slope to increase the edge angle thinking this sets the edge but in fact pushes the ski away from the hill causing slippage and acceleration.

Experienced skiers lean “AWAY” from the hill to get over the edge to set it which allows them total control of speed, direction and slippage.

It is not” but “how” one does this that is the true driving factor.

 

[Goose]

I'll do the same!, in mutual respect for discourse and passion for snow!

Cheers,.... or as I normally toast . "Cento Anno"

 

[CalG]

Knob Creek for me.

 

[François Pugh]

Both the above is basically what Im saying when I mention a combo of skid/carve on steeper slope. I really didn't think there was another way to slow down. I mean to me this seems normal or common. But is that all the OP was truly getting at? Slowing down doesn't mean going across as that is just a direction change. That even holds true for one at the early stages who is still somewhat snow plowing. Except of course when in that pizza position both skis are indeed skidding all the time and so going across does work better. Slowing down actually means moving slower. In order to do that, some amount of skidding or hockey stopping would need to be incorporated into the turn. Although technically if we hypothetically had enough width and we kept going across we would eventually slow down. Hence why the pizza plower at his already slower speed and with the constant skidding can slow down quite a bit.

The Op mentions thigh burn. Im not really sure how you apply some skidding friction without also using the legs to absorb a chunk of that. If one skids enough to create enough friction, the legs are going to feel that imo either way. If not creating enough friction in the skid for the legs to feel, then we probably not slowing down much.
That's one the things that can seem confusing about it all.

In an nut shell,....it seems what being discussed is pure clean carving vs incorporating sliding/skid (or not) into it in order to control speed. The pure carve is going to keep or even increase speed unless the width is so very wide and outside of that will certainly burn the legs if we try to go even deeper on edge and yet never really slow us down. The partial carve/skid is going to also burn the thighs imo especially if we are using some sort of small partial hockeystops. Of course the partial hockey stops can also lead one to hop over which is another way to burn the thighs...lol yet not necessarily slow down much. . In the end it seems the easiest way to control descent speed is to combo the carve with the skid at different percentages for the desired speed.

If that is basically what the OP is suggesting Im kind of surprised most would not already know this or at least be doing it even if unknowingly. It makes me wonder or question if what he is describing has a lot more to it than simply this or that what we are saying is not the same thing that he was trying to get across to us.

Yes, this is about a blended skid carve. No, that is not all. OP is warning about a tendancy some skiers may have (whether through fear or ignorance doesn't matter) to tip their edges too much at the end of the turn while trying to slow down, a tendancy that does not ditch speed.

 

[karlo]

That looks consequential.

This one popped up underneath that video. Not much edging going on in the segment on ice.

 

[karlo]

Anyway, I hope everyone enjoys some steeps soon, certainly lacking them here in Japan.

You must be in the wrong part of Japan.

Anyway, I agree with those that believe some have taken the OP out of context. I believe the OP is about skiers who are taking their skills to steeper terrain than they are accustomed to, to make linked turns, like these


Or, on a relative basis, comparing Giulia’s turns here at 1:05 with (Joe’s?) turns, setting aside why he’s doing them, at 1:45


The OP is about progression of smooth, linked, flowing turns into steeper and steeper slopes, not to the point where even the best skiers, like some here, need to make hop turns.

Giulia makes the most beautiful hop turns; they don’t even look like hops. And, I want to ski there! So beautiful.

 

[valeyard]

This post is awesome as it describes the exact issue I had. I struggled to survive the steep as I am both aft and hoped high edge angle will slow me down. But my ititan loved high edge angle and often instantly bite in and shoot me across the hill. Learning to reduce edge angles on purpose similar to "falling leaf" really helped me to gain confidence and control my speed.

 

[markojp]

This post is awesome as it describes the exact issue I had. I struggled to survive the steep as I am both aft and hoped high edge angle will slow me down. But my ititan loved high edge angle and often instantly bite in and shoot me across the hill. Learning to reduce edge angles on purpose similar to "falling leaf" really helped me to gain confidence and control my speed.

Your Titan was telling you that they're ahead of your feet. They just amplify the feedback more than many skis on the market.

 

[martyg]

Hey Dan - fancy seeing your name here.

For those that don't know...,Dan runs exquisite skills camps.

Enjoy!