How to increase your edge angle?

[Noodler]

I want to see Greg ski Goat or any woods run of my choice.

I think you guys could have a good time skiing some "fun" stuff together and engaging in some equally spirited debate. You should invite him out to Stowe and show him around. You're on the same side of the country. I enjoyed my time skiing with you (of course it was a long time ago) and have learned to compartmentalize "online Josh" versus "ski buddy" Josh.

 

[razie]

you got good company there - I'm very far from where I'd like to be, someone here said it best recently: the more you know, the more you realize what you don't know... same in skiing: the better you ski, the more you understand how far you are from those that ski better... and the harder it becomes to cross that last bridge, only to realize you're on a new path... with more bridges ahead of you... that's why my website stops at the "expert level" because the rest up from there, in pursuit of technical perfection, is pain an misery... and it gets too technical to easily convey in writing...

1. I like quoting myself and I haven't done it in a while... so here you have it

2. Realistically, most that get there just stop at "expert" and some keep refining it and eventually become top demo-ers or top levels in this or that organization and then there is the true next level, like the Reily or the Paul and they are visibly one or a few levels above, you can see the differences so clearly in the Interski vids - so much more impressive considering that all the others are national demo team-level members...

2. The more I think about it, the next level on me website, after expert, would be called "zen". The effort grows exponentially, it gets very technical - and not only the skiing but with the equipment tweaking and fine-tuning - and there are very few that can judge the improvements. And then there's the doubters and the naysayers... it truly is quite zen, any way I look at it.

 

[Roundturns]

My $.02 . What Heluva demonstrates on groomed snow is specific to the snow conditions he is skiing on . His skiing is tremendous in the videos he posts. Right there on par with the best in the sport. Regarding skiing as well off piste in ungroomed terrain, different conditions and different tactics would be used.

The videos of others skiing off piste through tight trees also demonstrates a high level off skill that is impressive .
Good skiing is specific to the conditions and the terrain.
So at the end of the day we are comparing apples to oranges when contrasting piste and off piste skiing. As to which genre represents better skiing, whe could debate forever and never achieve consensus.

I make this argument analogous to golf in the sense if somebody posted video of hitting driver repetitively 300 yards straight over and over again that in and of itself demonstrates a very high skill level.To question if the same guy can chip and putt really isn't relevant to what is being demonstrated.

 

[JTurner]

Looks regimented. But I suppose for demonstration purposes that's why. I'd like to see those angles off piste.

You generally can't get those same kind of angles off piste, because you need firm snow to push back against you. Soft snow just gives way.

 

[slowrider]

You generally can't get those same kind of angles off piste, because you need firm snow to push back against you. Soft snow just gives way.

Wider skis.

 

[razie]

Wider skis.

A prerequisite, but still limited - maybe you can get bigger angles, but not the same CP force / turn shape. In good terrain with powder, wider skis get closer, but in serious tracked heavy snow you can't take bumps on a long leg under power. I mean at least, I can't - it's too hard on the body. So if I can't safely plan my line at my speed, it's too tactical to "show me *that* everywhere"...

 

[slowrider]

I'm just fooling around. Without a firm base under the skis there's no way it can support groomer angles. I'm starting to prefer harder conditions for that reason.

 

[abcd]

Short video of Sebastien Michel on the subject

 

[BClipped]

I’ve often thought that a limiting factor to edge angle is hip and core flexibility. Watching that WC video of Hirscher, he makes a long line from the inside armpit to the inside foot when really extended. Must be hard to stretch that far in an active way that can snap back and go the opposite direction a couple of tenths later.

In free skiing, and building up to these big angles I think getting the inside foot out from under the hips so that both skis are on the same edge angle is important. I see it often that the outside ski goes out on a good angle but the inside ski stays flatter and under the body, limiting speed and grip - almost like doing a pistol squat but with the extended leg to the side rather than out front. Getting the feeling of both feet outside the torso in the turn is helpful I think.

 

[Rod9301]

I’ve often thought that a limiting factor to edge angle is hip and core flexibility. Watching that WC video of Hirscher, he makes a long line from the inside armpit to the inside foot when really extended. Must be hard to stretch that far in an active way that can snap back and go the opposite direction a couple of tenths later.

In free skiing, and building up to these big angles I think getting the inside foot out from under the hips so that both skis are on the same edge angle is important. I see it often that the outside ski goes out on a good angle but the inside ski stays flatter and under the body, limiting speed and grip - almost like doing a pistol squat but with the extended leg to the side rather than out front. Getting the feeling of both feet outside the torso in the turn is helpful I think.

Very true, and this is helped by having a narrow stance, instead of wide and using the inside ski as an outrigger.

 

[Tony S]

^^^
I think you guys are talking about an effect, not a cause. If you move inside too early / too bank-y / without a well-engaged tip, you're going to end up with this kind of stance, right?

 

[Rod9301]

^^^
I think you guys are talking about an effect, not a cause. If you move inside too early / too bank-y / without a well-engaged tip, you're going to end up with this kind of stance, right?

No, you tip the old outside ski, to the little toe edge, with weight on it, ski starts turning, and when comfortable or needed, transfer the weight to the new outside ski.

Classic weighted release, i use it often.
A lot of racers use it.

 

[oldschoolskier]

Just had this discussion with my nephew as he felt he had to increase his edge angle to increase his edge hold.

Increased edge angle does not always translate as increase hold. In a lot of cases because of poor loading (wt distribution) increased edge angle actual reduces edge hold by causing edge push out.

Before going down this route consider proper edge set through proper body position thereby maximizing edge hold without increasing edge angle. Once proper body position is mastered increased edge angle happens to counter forces required to maintain the loading applied.

I’ll let the instructors give you the drills required for body position to master edge hold.

 

[LiquidFeet]

Another way of saying "proper body position" with regard to grip is "platform angle." It's the angle formed between the skis and the Center of Mass above it as measured sideways. Ski to snow angle has nothing to do with the grip, if the skis are on top of hard snow.

In other words, use counter and angulation enough to gain the grip by moving the CoM out over the outside ski.

 

[slowrider]

Does that increase the pressure on the shovels?

 

[LiquidFeet]

Does that increase the pressure on the shovels?

Nope. That's a function of how far forward the body is over the ski and whether your ankles are contacting the tongues of your boots or not. Platform angle is a function of how far out over the outside ski the body is. Grip is a lateral issue, while shovel pressure is a fore-aft issue.

 

[razie]

In free skiing, and building up to these big angles I think getting the inside foot out from under the hips so that both skis are on the same edge angle is important. I see it often that the outside ski goes out on a good angle but the inside ski stays flatter and under the body, limiting speed and grip - almost like doing a pistol squat but with the extended leg to the side rather than out front. Getting the feeling of both feet outside the torso in the turn is helpful I think.

Very true, and this is helped by having a narrow stance, instead of wide and using the inside ski as an outrigger.

^^^
I think you guys are talking about an effect, not a cause. If you move inside too early / too bank-y / without a well-engaged tip, you're going to end up with this kind of stance, right?

It's a matter of balance on the outside ski and the ability to commit to the outside ski. Lacking balance will lead to inside ski being used for either weight or balance (put under the hips, even unweighted).

Leaning inside is most often resulting on weight on the inside ski - the skier can't commit to the outside ski. But a skier that can lean outside a lot can also have the commitment issues and ends up way too wide, with the inside ski under the hips... especially hip dumpers, since their balance is impaired by using the big muscles. Tippers tend to stay narrow as they have good foot control.

That's why a narrow stance (or vertical separation at big angles, like in my avatar) is generally preferred - it's so funny to go to a course and see the course conductor ski wide only those 3 turns when he says we should ski hip-width, but ski very narrow the rest of the course.

... your skiing can fall apart even when you're having a bad day - that's not something you'll normally see, as most skiers wouldn't publicize the bad day skiing, but as a community service, here's "a friend" having a bad day:


Absolute weird snow, you can see little commitment to the outside ski, way back on the skis and rotating as a result and a hugely big wide stance (given how he normally skis) with the inside ski opening up way early, especially on the pitch. In one word: big commitment issues... and survival instincts kicking in...

 

[rustypouch]

A few things that have helped me:

-Starting the turn early and smoothly
-Committing to the outside ski
-Shortening the inside leg
-Understanding that the outside leg extending is an outcome of doing things right, not an active input

 

[Mike King]

No, you tip the old outside ski, to the little toe edge, with weight on it, ski starts turning, and when comfortable or needed, transfer the weight to the new outside ski.

Classic weighted release, i use it often.
A lot of racers use it.

Almost -- the weight needs to be either transferred or well along in the transfer to the new outside ski before edge change. The body is moving with the skis through edge change. As the skis tip (led by the new inside lower leg), they are edged. With the weight on the new outside ski immediately after edge change and the outside ski tipping to create edge angle, the ski bends. Getting the ski to bend early in the turn is the key, but you can't effectively do so if you are moving away from the skis or the outside ski is not receiving pressure early in the turn.

 

[JKinBC-NC]

No, you tip the old outside ski, to the little toe edge, with weight on it, ski starts turning, and when comfortable or needed, transfer the weight to the new outside ski.

Classic weighted release, i use it often.
A lot of racers use it.

Almost -- the weight needs to be either transferred or well along in the transfer to the new outside ski before edge change. The body is moving with the skis through edge change. As the skis tip (led by the new inside lower leg), they are edged. With the weight on the new outside ski immediately after edge change and the outside ski tipping to create edge angle, the ski bends. Getting the ski to bend early in the turn is the key, but you can't effectively do so if you are moving away from the skis or the outside ski is not receiving pressure early in the turn.

Mike King's response doesn't make sense to me. The description that "the weight needs to be either transferred or well along in the transfer to the new outside ski before edge change" does not describe a weighted release. Yes, one could do that while skiing, but that would not be a weighted release. In a weighted release, the transfer to the new outside ski happens after the edge change.