How to increase your edge angle?

[Mike King]

Hmm... couldn't you say that the figure labeled "Angulated" is "inclined with angulation", or "lower body inclined, with upper body also angulated"

Yep.

 

[Mike King]

Nothing in the definition that says you can’t shorten the inside leg. Banking, full body inclination, is not just leaning over like a wooden soldier.
Edit- just looked it up in encyclo. No mention of bending inside leg. It does kind of imply no bending. Go ask Bob!

From Bob:

@James, it is pretty difficult biomechanically to direct pressure to the outside ski without some angulation -- there is just too much pressure through the pelvis to do so. Just try to stand on one leg without moving your pelvis.

 

[mike_m]

There's one component that I don't believe has been raised as yet: The more soft and supple you are as you slice ahead and along the inside edge of your outside ski, the more effect you will get from sliding back, tipping over, and lifting your inside foot/leg. If you are braced/pushing down on the outside ski, you will reduce the effectiveness of the activity of your inside half.

If you look for this in videos of the highest-level skiers, you will see that they are very soft on the support foot/leg, which allows the inside lower half to tip over further.

Best!
Mike

 

[James]

Inclination is a deviation of the center of mass from vertical to the base of support.

^ Not clear. You could say inside the turn; to one side and even inside the bos.

@James, it is pretty difficult biomechanically to direct pressure to the outside ski without some angulation -- there is just too much pressure through the pelvis to do so. Just try to stand on one leg without moving your pelvis.

I don’t think you can do much without moving your pelvis. Doesn’t change the definition of inclining the com.
Even wooden soldiering leaning over is going to move the pelvis. The pelvis rotating or tilting isn’t all that influential to the com. Angulating out would move the com.

Regardless, I think if you’re shortening the inside leg, which allows pressure on the outside ski, and your body is wholly tipped in, you’re still banking. Now if we say bending the inside leg is angulation, well, ok, it’s not banking.

“Banking. Banking is the special case of inclination without angulation, when the entire body leans into the turn while remaining more-or-less straight. Often considered an error, in fact banking can be the best move at times, especially in high level, high performance skiing where leaning into the turn (inclination) alone often produces sufficient edge angle.”

www.theskidiva.com/forums/index.php?threads/angulation.12095/page-2

 

[Mike King]

^ Not clear. You could say inside the turn; to one side and even inside the bos.

I don’t think you can do much without moving your pelvis. Doesn’t change the definition of inclining the com.
Even wooden soldiering leaning over is going to move the pelvis. The pelvis rotating or tilting isn’t all that influential to the com. Angulating out would move the com.

Regardless, I think if you’re shortening the inside leg, which allows pressure on the outside ski, and your body is wholly tipped in, you’re still banking. Now if we say bending the inside leg is angulation, well, ok, it’s not banking.

“Banking. Banking is the special case of inclination without angulation, when the entire body leans into the turn while remaining more-or-less straight. Often considered an error, in fact banking can be the best move at times, especially in high level, high performance skiing where leaning into the turn (inclination) alone often produces sufficient edge angle.”

www.theskidiva.com/forums/index.php?threads/angulation.12095/page-2

Inclination is a balancing move as the CoM must move inside the BoS. Banking is inclination with the result that pressure is directed to the inside ski. Inclination with angulation has two results: 1) the platform angle is greater than it would be with inclination alone, and pressure is directed to the outside ski. I would dispute that banking is the best move very often, and can't currently think of any specific circumstances when it would be.

Mike

 

[James]

Banking is inclination with the result that pressure is directed to the inside ski.

Says who?

 

[Mike King]

Says who?

Ron Lemaster. The USSA. PSIA. @Bob Barnes. All of the PSIA demo team members in Aspen, as well as many whom I've skied with outside of Aspen.

 

[HardDaysNight]

And I! At any point in any turn there is a certain degree of inclination that is necessary to remain in balance. You don’t actually have any choice in the matter.

 

[James]

Ron Lemaster. The USSA. PSIA. @Bob Barnes. All of the PSIA demo team members in Aspen, as well as many whom I've skied with outside of Aspen.

It rarely comes up in such specifics. ? You'd just say too much weight on inside ski etc.
Bob and the USSA seem to be at odds:

Banking. Banking is the special case of inclination without angulation, when the entire body leans into the turn while remaining more-or-less straight. Often considered an error, in fact banking can be the best move at times, especially in high level, high performance skiing where leaning into the turn (inclination) alone often produces sufficient edge angle.”

https://my.ussa.org/sites/default/files/documents/athletics/freestyle/2014-15/documents/Alpine%20Coaching%20Dictionary.pdf

Psia Technical Manual, 2014

LeMaster has this on angulation:

Ultimate Skiing, 2010

So if angulation is in the frontal plane, full body inclining yet shortening the inside leg would not be angulating.

Is this banking?

 

[LiquidFeet]

^^That guy is angulated at the neck.

 

[Mike King]

The issue is that there are many definitions of inclination, angulation, and banking. Angulation, at least as used by PSIA-RM, is simply the creation of angles between the upper body and the lower body. Inclination is deviation of the CoM to the inside of the turn — e.g. it is a balancing against the normal forces (gravity plus centrifugal) of the turn. You can be both inclined and angulated. Inclined without angulation is banking. Look at Paul Lorenz’s post below where inclination seems to be synonymous with banking. Personally, I think the RM taxonomy makes more sense as it sorts all of this out. The important part is that it doesn’t require much angulation to direct pressure to the outside ski and that inclination is a balancing move.

ANGULATION or INCLINATION??...What's the point?

Over the years, I have been trying to increase my speed (down the hill) and performance in all high end turns. Both of these aspects inherently increase risk and the pressure given back from the snow pushing on the base of the ski. To successfully improve both of these, I felt that I had to look...

www.paullorenzclinics.com

 

[mike_m]

Simplest definition of banking I've ever heard: "Inclination without angulation".

 

[Prosper]

ANGULATION or INCLINATION??...What's the point?

Over the years, I have been trying to increase my speed (down the hill) and performance in all high end turns. Both of these aspects inherently increase risk and the pressure given back from the snow pushing on the base of the ski. To successfully improve both of these, I felt that I had to look...

www.paullorenzclinics.com

Thanks for posting this link. I found this article really helpful in understanding inclination vs angulation and the benefits of each at different times.

 

[Prosper]

Been watching some of Paul Lorenz's videos on Youtube. In this one he states at around 1:54 that to align the COM on the outside ski one of his mental cues is to lift or pull up on the inside half of the body (inside leg and inside hip). Any drills which you can think of which will help with this lifting up of the inside half of the body?

 

[LiquidFeet]

The Schlopy drill:
Railers and more Schlopys:

 

[Swede]

For SL (or SL-ish free skiing), a not uncommon enemy of angles (and grip) is crouching too much. Try to keep your upper body more upright. Drop your poles and put your hands behind your back to ”eliminate” influx from upper body. Focus on feet, knees and hips and show the underside of your skis to all the bystanders. A fellow Swede has some video on his fb page of this with U14:s (turn sound off unless you understand Scandinavian languages)