How to increase your edge angle?

[S.H.]

And here's Slalom. And I'm not picking a selection to make a point, just the first few in sequence.

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the fact that this "not so much flexing" argument cannot be sustained by any evidence should give someone pause...

here's the video, the first result on YT - seems to be a 2020 race. I'm way behind on what's happening this season, busy with the day job... but not too busy to post a lot here, I see

I'm not arguing she doesn't flex. But she doesn't flex nearly as much as what you claim is the pinnacle of good skiing.

If this is "deep flexing" to you ...
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Then I agree with you.

 

[karlo]

Inclination in my view is "lazy" skiing

Is it fun to incline into the hill sometimes? Sure, but it leads to lots of problems for skiers with lesser skills as they then have more difficulty successfully linking turns in steeper turn.

Which is why it’s not “lazy” to seek that fun

 

[Noodler]

Skiers who fully own the ability to use strong counterbalancing with good separation, but also choose to use inclination at times are a very different matter from skiers who default to using inclination to edge their skis to make turns. Skiers who only "know" inclination are absolutely lost when the going gets tough. Those are the skiers that are seen hunting for a turn as they try to navigate steep and/or difficult conditions. Inclination and extension releases are not the right formula for high performance skiing. Now I know a pile of you will all go find videos of skiers inclining and skiing fast using extension in their releases, but you're not going to change my mind. So save yourself the effort.

 

[Mike King]

Flexing and extending is part of managing the pressure. It is absolutely necessary to achieve high level skiing, and you aren't going to find any ski racers winning ski races who don't do it.

Mike

 

[Mike King]

Skiers who fully own the ability to use strong counterbalancing with good separation, but also choose to use inclination at times are a very different matter from skiers who default to using inclination to edge their skis to make turns. Skiers who only "know" inclination are absolutely lost when the going gets tough. Those are the skiers that are seen hunting for a turn as they try to navigate steep and/or difficult conditions. Inclination and extension releases are not the right formula for high performance skiing. Now I know a pile of you will all go find videos of skiers inclining and skiing fast using extension in their releases, but you're not going to change my mind. So save yourself the effort.

There's a difference between inclination and banking. Banking is inclination without angulation. Inclination is a balancing move. In order to successfully execute a turn, you must incline, and incline precisely enough to balance against the forces of the turn. You can increase edge angle by angulating. And angulation will help to allow balancing against the outside ski. You won't be successful in turning if you only angulate, but do not incline. Inclination is a deviation of the center of mass from vertical to the base of support.

Mike

 

[HardDaysNight]

Flexing and extending is part of managing the pressure. It is absolutely necessary to achieve high level skiing, and you aren't going to find any ski racers winning ski races who don't do it.

Mike

Yes! Flexing and extending are pressure control movements. They, in themselves, have nothing to do with releasing edges which can be achieved WHILE flexing, extending or neither.

 

[Mike King]

I’m going back to both. After years and years of not thinking about moving knees, I’m starting to again in some situations. Particularly when the ground surface is not hard or even. None of this is either or.

@James, why are (were) you thinking not to move the knees? What do you think the impact is on ski performance of either not moving the knees or moving them for that matter? Is this a performance cue or a biomechanic outcome you are attempting to achieve?

 

[Prosper]

There's a difference between inclination and banking. Banking is inclination without angulation. Inclination is a balancing move. In order to successfully execute a turn, you must incline, and incline precisely enough to balance against the forces of the turn. You can increase edge angle by angulating. And angulation will help to allow balancing against the outside ski. You won't be successful in turning if you only angulate, but do not incline. Inclination is a deviation of the center of mass from vertical to the base of support.

Can you show an example of each? I think I fully understand banking and angulation but am having a harder time with inclination.

 

[mike_m]

Love that "cone" image video in Post 122. Going to go out today and play with it. Thanks!

 

[crgildart]

Counterbalancing is what helps me the most.. Evolving from old school 80s PSIA and bump skiing influences had both hands always locked up and out front. Getting comfortable with it being OK and recommended to allow the inside arm and hand to reach out and down, even touching down when really cranking a turn was what got my skis out and up farther. The rest of it, edge feel and control was already fine but breaking the old school hand and arm placement allowed that counterbalancing to happen.

 

[razie]

Flexing and extending is part of managing the pressure. It is absolutely necessary to achieve high level skiing, and you aren't going to find any ski racers winning ski races who don't do it.

Mike

I can see the new ski team ads: "Hiring good pressure managers"

 

[Noodler]

Can you show an example of each? I think I fully understand banking and angulation but am having a harder time with inclination.

Ditto. I also don't understand that there's a difference between inclination and banking. The definition of inclination that I understood would not have any upper / lower body separation. What is inclining if it's not banking (where the upper body is leaning inside of the turn)?

 

[Noodler]

Flexing and extending is part of managing the pressure. It is absolutely necessary to achieve high level skiing, and you aren't going to find any ski racers winning ski races who don't do it.

Mike

You completely blew past the context of my use of "extension". I said an "extension release" - aka pushing off / up unweighting. The release where you must have something ("platform") to push off from which is greatly limiting when skiing off-piste.

 

[razie]

Ditto. I also don't understand that there's a difference between inclination and banking. The definition of inclination that I understood would not have any upper / lower body separation. What is inclining if it's not banking (where the upper body is leaning inside of the turn)?

Once you are "there" they look the same - that's why its generally hard to explain or see the difference.

It's a matter of how you got "there". Banking starts creating the angles with the shoulders and the trunk as opposed to the feet and lower body.

P.s. inclination of COM is a different concept. Sometimes "inclination" is used to mean that...

 

[Erik Timmerman]

Ditto. I also don't understand that there's a difference between inclination and banking. The definition of inclination that I understood would not have any upper / lower body separation. What is inclining if it's not banking (where the upper body is leaning inside of the turn)?

Inclination is simply moving your COM away from the BOS. Banking would be inclination without angulation.

 

[James]

You can incline parts too. So lower legs tippied in would be inclination of the lower leg.

The first several images here are full body inclination, aka banked. Though there might actually be some angulation after the first. Hard to say from the angle.

 

[Mike King]

You can incline parts too. So lower legs tippied in would be inclination of the lower leg.

The first several images here are full body inclination, aka banked. Though there might actually be some angulation after the first. Hard to say from the angle.

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Given the snow coming off of the outside edge, the first frame is likely angulated, not banked.

@Bob Barnes has some great stick figures showing inclination and angulation. My art skills drawing on the computer are not good, but here are some chicken scratchings that might help.

 

[dbostedo]

Given the snow coming off of the outside edge, the first frame is likely angulated, not banked.

@Bob Barnes has some great stick figures showing inclination and angulation. My art skills drawing on the computer are not good, but here are some chicken scratchings that might help.

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Hmm... couldn't you say that the figure labeled "Angulated" is "inclined with angulation", or "lower body inclined, with upper body also angulated"

 

[Noodler]

So what we had here for a number of posts is a misunderstanding or difference in definitions of inclination. I will no longer use banking and inclination interchangeably.

 

[James]

Given the snow coming off of the outside edge, the first frame is likely angulated, not banked.

Nothing in the definition that says you can’t shorten the inside leg. Banking, full body inclination, is not just leaning over like a wooden soldier.
Edit- just looked it up in encyclo. No mention of bending inside leg. It does kind of imply no bending. Go ask Bob!

From Bob:

Inclination. Meaning simply "lean," inclination in skiing refers to tipping your body into a turn for balance, something we do in many activities of motion--riding a bicycle, skating, even walking and running. More specifically, it refers to a movement of the center of mass toward the inside of a turn, with no implication as to the relative positions or movements of any parts of the body. In other words, you can incline while tall or short, and while angulated or not. Yes, we can talk about inclining specific parts of the body--shins, for example--but unless otherwise specified, "inclination" in general refers to the lean of the whole body (center of mass).