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Noodler

Sir Turn-a-lot
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@James - that may all be true, but I've never found inclination to be my friend. Inclination in my view is "lazy" skiing and is highly dependent on the BoS never failing (IOW - you better not hit a rough patch or icy section or lookout). Is it fun to incline into the hill sometimes? Sure, but it leads to lots of problems for skiers with lesser skills as they then have more difficulty successfully linking turns in steeper turn. Banking or leaning into the hill is probably the biggest culprit I see in skiers unable to make the leap to the "next level" in their skiing. So I do not choose to use inclination to achieve higher edge angles. Does that mean I don't get lazy myself? That's an easy one to answer. ;)
 

Erik Timmerman

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I haven't really been following this thread in a while, but with regard to inclination, I'd like to offer this. Tell me these guys look like golf carts.

 

S.H.

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@James - that may all be true, but I've never found inclination to be my friend. Inclination in my view is "lazy" skiing and is highly dependent on the BoS never failing (IOW - you better not hit a rough patch or icy section or lookout). Is it fun to incline into the hill sometimes? Sure, but it leads to lots of problems for skiers with lesser skills as they then have more difficulty successfully linking turns in steeper turn. Banking or leaning into the hill is probably the biggest culprit I see in skiers unable to make the leap to the "next level" in their skiing. So I do not choose to use inclination to achieve higher edge angles. Does that mean I don't get lazy myself? That's an easy one to answer. ;)
So this is lazy skiing?
1579121449961.png
 

razie

Sir Shiftsalot
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I haven't really been following this thread in a while, but with regard to inclination, I'd like to offer this. Tell me these guys look like golf carts.


No - but we can see the difference in angles and ski performacne between

1579121697788.png


and

1579121708330.png


That's kind'a the point - your inputs dictate your outcomes / your desired outcome dictates your inputs. At the same time, you see even the first set of inclinationistas look like this in transition, with significant flexing and coiling, albeit a wide stance ;)

1579121780688.png
 

Skitechniek

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@razie
"Deep flexing leads to performance"

There is absolutely no evidence to support that claim whatsoever.

Skiing is about pressure/GRF, not about the way you release a ski. Pintu uses a lot of flexion, Hirscher used flexing and sometimes extension, the Italian women use a lot of extension. One thing they all have in common is that they all won a lot of races.

The way you release a ski has zero impact on ski performance, it only has an impact on when ski performance will start. Edging and releasing should imo be viewed as resistance vs no resistance on the ski. The way you release a ski is merely a choice of when to apply resistance/pressure on the ski. The release itself however has no influence whatsoever on pressure on the ski. There is no paper or law of physics that says it is directly connected. Things that influence the pressure are things like speed, edge angle, position of the CoM along length ski, surface, newtons on the ski and the timing of edge angle and when you move forward.

To put it a bit differently, your ski doesn't care what your release looks like and what movements you use biomechanically. A ski just listens to force/physics, not biomechanics. If it is on edge the ski reacts, if it is not on edge it does not react. The ski does not care how it gets there. So I view releasing as edging and de-edging, resistance vs no resistance and I am less bothered with the mechanics of it. Mechanics that create more grf are the important mechanics imo.

The only way in which you could argue that the transition is connected to ski performance is as following. The later you decide to apply pressure on the ski (slow transition), the more speed you will carry through the apex and peak GRF will be higher. If you transition fast and apply pressure immediately you slow down earlier and peak grf will be lower. But even this is not entirely true, because I can transition fast and delay the angle and I would still have high peak GRF. Which is how Hirscher skied for example. Very short second half of the turn, early edging first half of the turn, but edge angles were developing quite late into the turn. I find Ted vs Marcel a nice comparison. Marcel is earlier on the new edge, but develops his angles later. Ted is later on the new edge, but develops angles earlier. So in that sense you could argue transitioning fast increases performance. But I think that is a false premise, because what allows Hirscher to edge early is not the transition, but the pressure on the ski in the second half of the turn. To be early you need a short and good second half of the turn. If you would analyse this you'd see the transition time is not so different between Ted and Marcel, Marcel just has a shorter steering phase. He bends the ski more in a shorter period of time.

I was in Kuehtai training and teaching the other week and team global racing was there too (consists of wc skiers like Sam Maes, Magnus Walch and some other good wc skiers. Not consistently top 30, but good nonetheless.). None skied like the demo guys. Last year I trained a local race team, if they would ski like Reilly I would immediately change their skiing. It has zero application in gates. That kind of skiing would not win a u16 race, I think u14 would even be difficult.

On a sidenote, imo an overlooked but frequently used way to initiate a release of the ski is by raising the hips. Only after the CoM has been raised a couple of centimers by raising the hips, flexing or extending starts. In high angle turns you really need to get your CoM closer to your BoS before you can use leg movements to change edges. If angles are not to high and therefore the hips are high enough, raising the hips is not needed and leg movements suffice.
 

razie

Sir Shiftsalot
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@razie
"Deep flexing leads to performance"

There is absolutely no evidence to support that claim whatsoever.

I would challenge you to find a WC or low points FIS skier on a SL course being able to go edge to edge while fully standing up at skis flat.

It's simple physics: if your hips are UP at skis flat, you cannot engage your edges to the side, because your legs are already long and the slope is falling away from you, your hips become completely disconnected from the snow and you'll have to wait .3 of a second just for the hips to drop enough to establish what coaches call "inclination of COM". So that skier will always be late to engage, thus late out of the turn, with late pressure and slowing himself or herself down in every turn - in a SL turn at 0.8 seconds, that would also mean you're just hopping up and down without turning, since hopping back up would take another .3 seconds...

In GS, you can get away with it, but please show me some modern racers that would hop up and down, top to bottom on average...

p.s. maybe we should clarify "performance" itself. the shorter the turn radius on a given ski, the more performance there is... that's my implicit understanding of performance. The more ski bend, at a given speed, the more performance. So on a 13m SL ski, that means doing like 9m turns, which would be par for the course.
 
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Skitechniek

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@razie
I never said WC racers are hopping up and down in race courses. I said it did not improve performance. I view performance as GRF or turning radius of the ski when applying pressure. I could ski straight for 150 meters and still make a 24 meter turn on a 30m gs ski. The 24 m turn is the hard part, changing my transition from 150 meters to 5 meters is childs play.

Flexing in a race course is due to time constraint, not cause it miraculously improves performance in the way I define it. The course sets in WC are extremely hard, you wouldn't make 90% of the gates if you're not transitioning fast. Meaning that they have to transition fast.

Let me put it another way. In Europe we focus more on turn mechanics than transition mechanics. If we have two racers and one is coached to improve his transition and the other to improve his turn mechanics. Which one will be better?

Skiing is about circular travel, not about the .3 of a second you transition.

When I was racing as a kid I wonder if they ever explained the concept of flex to release to me. That probably wasn't until u14. Even though no one explained it, I still did it. Cause otherwise I simply wouldn't make the gate... Doesn't mean I flexed outside of the gates...

Just because someone flexes during transition doesn't mean they are good and just cause someone doesn't flex during transition doesn't mean they are bad. The biggest influence on turning radius is the part of the turn that has pressure... So good skiing is imho defined by pressure, not by releasing pressure.
 

razie

Sir Shiftsalot
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Too much to really get into it on page 7 of a thread. Start some separate threads if you'd like...

But the following is not correct:

Flexing in a race course is due to time constraint, not cause it miraculously improves performance in the way I define it. The course sets in WC are extremely hard, you wouldn't make 90% of the gates if you're not transitioning fast. Meaning that they have to transition fast.

I would challenge you to show us video of you or anyone, making 9-10m carved turns with a 3-4m offset on SL skis, without deep flexion. Without that turn shape, we cannot really talk of "performance" in a SL race...

If not - what do you mean by "performance"? I defined it quite narrowly.

Just so we recap the math, you're not wasting .3 but .6 and if you spend .6 getting the hips up and down to prepare to turn but not actually turning, that leaves .2 to get the skis redirected 90-160 degrees, if you want to keep a modicum of rythm. That's why many low skilled racers just pivot and stivot all the way down the course, because they can't bend them enough while still going up and down... and while I know many coaches choose that as the goal and compensate with a "get forward" focus, that's not me... that's just poor skiing skills for me, too narrow of a skill set - those are those racers that give racing a bad name by carving and railing around without an ability to control the turn shape and speed, while carving.

Just because someone flexes during transition doesn't mean they are good

amen - some hip dumpers can flex but I don't personally like that skiing. Although generally, if someone deep flexes regularly, it means he/she is good...

just cause someone doesn't flex during transition doesn't mean they are bad

if they can't flex at all, yes, it does... if they can and they choose not to, it doesn't...
 
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Skitechniek

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I defined performance very narrowly as well.
And I think we pretty much agree on everything, apart from how difficult flexing is.

I view flexing during the release as something very easy that doesn't really need teaching, you view it as some vital element of the ski racing curriculum. That is at least how I perceive your opinion, but I don't want to put words in your mouth, so please correct me if I did.

But we both agree on flexing being a necessary skill to learn in order to ski decent times. But believe me, in Europe race programs really hardly focus on it. That movement comes really natural to kids, even u8's can do it.

The time a ski is on edge is way longer than the time a ski is flat on its base in a race course. Hence I'd rather focus on skills revolving around edging and pressure and not around transitioning.

Edit: Just want to add. Flexing doesn't equal short turning radius either. You posted this clip: Those slalom turns are all flexed, but the turning radius is way too big to have any serious slalom application. I could 100% extend and ski that radius...
 
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LiquidFeet

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....what do you mean by "performance"? I defined it quite narrowly.....

Does everyone here equate "ski performance" to "ski bending" in a turn where the bend directly translates to turn radius?
Does everyone here define performance such that more bend = shorter radius = higher performance?
 

razie

Sir Shiftsalot
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I defined performance very narrowly as well.
And I think we pretty much agree on everything, apart from how difficult flexing is.

I view flexing during the release as something very easy that doesn't really need teaching, you view it as some vital element of the ski racing curriculum. That is at least how I perceive your opinion, but I don't want to put words in your mouth, so please correct me if I did.

But we both agree on flexing being a necessary skill to learn in order to ski decent times. But believe me, in Europe race programs really hardly focus on it. That movement comes really natural to kids, even u8's can do it.

The time a ski is on edge is way longer than the time a ski is flat on its base in a race course. Hence I'd rather focus on skills revolving around edging and pressure and not around transitioning.

Yeah... sounds about right. I had FIS European racers for a few seasons and it sounds about par. They could not flex a bit, btw (I know that's not par though). I think that if a racer extends and pivots as a matter of fact, that will be their default and when the going gets tough, that's what you'll see: bounced around from rut to rut, trying to engage the tip of the ski... They'll be decent in some specific courses, but most of the time hang well back in points.

Flexing - it is definitely not something you'll see at the average U14/U16 at the club level.

It would be an interesting discussion - what is the best way to develop racers. I think in Europe you have a much deeper base to draw from (so some survivorship bias?), skiing is a much bigger thing and the mountains not a scarce resource... although even so, I see the good teams develop all skills, including deep flexing, very early. How? Good question. It may be that "bend ze kneez" is indeed from Europe and it's just common sense, like saying "hello"?

Also an interesting discussion on teaching forward first and allowing flexing to appear in "the good ones", while some don't get it and never "evolve" versus teaching all solid technique up front, which will always include using all joints as needed and then letting the good ones get faster - but have the entire group ski well... think about teaching tennis or any sport like that and not teaching serving or receiving a certain ball etc, but letting it "appear" while just playing... it's simply not done. And yeah, I know the entire "skiing is an open skill sport" discussion.

cheers
 
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Skitechniek

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Interesting discussion indeed! Just want to add we don't teach forward, we teach centered here. But the most important thing we teach at a young age is upper body discipline. Upper body discipline and being centered are probably the main subjects of the curriculum here.
 

S.H.

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I would challenge you to show us video of you or anyone, making 9-10m carved turns with a 3-4m offset on SL skis, without deep flexion. Without that turn shape, we cannot really talk of "performance" in a SL race...
Brignone certainly doesn't use deep flexion in SL ... but she does okay.

Definitely flexes more in SL than in GS, but ... it's nothing like the "deep flexing" that you have presented as examples of good skiing.
 

LiquidFeet

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There are different kinds of deep flexion.

The edge angle of these skis is pretty high. I know this is only one image. Even so I'm wondering how people think the high edge angle of these skis relates to this body's deep flexion. Is some part of the body's crouched flexion contributing in a positive way to the high edge angles of the skis?
Screen Shot 2020-01-15 at 5.38.44 PM.png
 
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razie

Sir Shiftsalot
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Brignone certainly doesn't use deep flexion in SL ... but she does okay.

Definitely flexes more in SL than in GS, but ... it's nothing like the "deep flexing" that you have presented as examples of good skiing.

Heh. Here she is winning a GS in 2016:

And here are her first transitions:

1579130158330.png

1579130178592.png

1579130210806.png

1579130230779.png

1579130291943.png


etc..

I think her movement pattern can easily make an observer think she's not flexing, but, reality is different. Just one out of however many transitions is somewhat taller but still quite flexed - and that one was on a flatter less offset turn, where that's normal.

But yes, she overall skis taller than others, probably why you remembered her skiing, but that tall is not as tall as one may think without looking carefully. I wonder if her size and some other biomechanical aspects visible in her skiing have something to do with it... but regardless, an entire generation of Italian FIS racers will try to imitate what they think they see in her skiing and hop from apex to apex, egged on by their coaches.

p.s. the video is

 
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razie

Sir Shiftsalot
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And here's Slalom. And I'm not picking a selection to make a point, just the first few in sequence.

1579130809212.png

1579130838984.png

1579130852794.png

1579130867106.png


1579130924854.png


the fact that this "not so much flexing" argument cannot be sustained by any evidence should give someone pause...

here's the video, the first result on YT - seems to be a 2020 race. I'm way behind on what's happening this season, busy with the day job... but not too busy to post a lot here, I see :rolleyes:

 
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razie

Sir Shiftsalot
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Interesting discussion indeed! Just want to add we don't teach forward, we teach centered here. But the most important thing we teach at a young age is upper body discipline. Upper body discipline and being centered are probably the main subjects of the curriculum here.

I tend to be careful with the upper body discipline. It is obviously a good thing, but I have seen that often lead to an upper body driven skiing - i.e. hip dumping.

About coaching flexing, there is something that needs said. It is not something that is easy to teach, tbh.

The flexing will initially result in tired skiers, loss of speed control, loss of turn shape and the skiing and confidence generally falls apart. Teaching it is quite involved technically - and even though you can get results in as little as a week, it takes about a season to make it consistent on course and then you can start to speed them up. It's been my conclusion that this is why most coaches stay away from it, because the first effects are all negative and they don't know how to correct them and teach it as a package, complemented properly with other elements that make everything work.

This is especially true for coaching racers, which have races and parents demanding points, all the way through the season... and after one or two seasons, you racer moves on to someone else...

cheers
 
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