Favorite Bumps/Mogul Videos for tips

[cosmoliu]

I've seen that video by Bob several times and its excellent, of course. One thing to point out in that animation is how vigorously the figure pushes its hands forward as the feet come up toward its chest. The captions don't mention this move, but Bob must certainly have thought it important enough to include it in the animation. Perhaps I am noticing it this time around because I've only just started using that move this past season. A light switched on in my head when I began including box jumps in my gym workouts last summer and I found that the jumps were much more successful if I actively pushed my hands forward as I landed on the box. Otherwise, I'd fall backwards off box about half the time. Last season I started concentrating on using that move in my bump runs, and it took my skiing up another notch. And a big notch at that.

Edit- Some of you might remember the old "stick 'em in the toes, punch 'em in the nose" mantra for pole plants in the bumps. I like to quote that when I'm working with someone whose hands tend to lag behind in the bumps. "Stick 'em in the toes" for the active pole plant on the top, or just beyond the top, of the bump. "Punch 'em in the nose" for the active movement of the hand to keep it forward. Of course, it's best to have that move evolve into keeping the hands quietly in front, as emulated by that skier in the video with the white patches on his knees. I'm not there yet.

 

[Guy in Shorts]

-Some of you might remember the old "stick 'em in the toes, punch 'em in the nose" mantra for pole plants in the bumps. I like to quote that when I'm working with someone whose hands tend to lag behind in the bumps. "Stick 'em in the toes" for the active pole plant on the top, or just beyond the top, of the bump. "Punch 'em in the nose" for the active movement of the hand to keep it forward. Of course, it's best to have that move evolve into keeping the hands quietly in front, as emulated by that skier in the video with the white patches on his knees. I'm not there yet.

That is a saying that I haven't heard. Along the same vein my mogul coach preaches the maxim "shine the flashlight with one hand then stab the frog with the other". For anyone that has done frog hunting this makes sense. My wife loves to say time to go frog hunting as she takes off stabbing the bumps.

Mr Moose shot this footage of the last lift served run on Superstar two days ago.

 

[jack97]

As a CSIA Lvl4 kept asking us...."Are you sure?"

I'm not freelancing here.

Who said you're freelancing? As mentioned in this thread and something I agree with, some of the concepts you mentioned are "institutionalized back seat skiing".

The vid by BB does mention the feet "forward and back .... underneath the body". Later it mentions "neutral" in the cuffs. That said, the vid is about "backpedaling" concept and neutral cuff concepts, both of these have been a subject of "epic" thread wars back at the old site. There are pros and cons to these concepts and as I said the best of luck to you in finding what works.

As a contrast to the mentioned concepts, here's Fearing's vid in its entirety and you can watch within its context. Its more aligned to Aldighieri' (U10 training) vid . These coaches are teaching mogul skiing in a direct line. Starting at 18:27 and on, its all about loading the front of the ski. In addition, at 9:16, the flat land drill to load the front of the ski to control speed was something an old Austrian trained skier use to mention at the old site.

 

[geepers]

Who said you're freelancing? As mentioned in this thread and something I agree with, some of the concepts you mentioned are "institutionalized back seat skiing".

The vid by BB does mention the feet "forward and back .... underneath the body". Later it mentions "neutral" in the cuffs. That said, the vid is about "backpedaling" concept and neutral cuff concepts, both of these have been a subject of "epic" thread wars back at the old site. There are pros and cons to these concepts and as I said the best of luck to you in finding what works.

As a contrast to the mentioned concepts, here's Fearing's vid in its entirety and you can watch within its context. Its more aligned to Aldighieri' (U10 training) vid . These coaches are teaching mogul skiing in a direct line. Starting at 18:27 and on, its all about loading the front of the ski. In addition, at 9:16, the flat land drill to load the front of the ski to control speed was something an old Austrian trained skier use to mention at the old site.

Yep, I just don't get this labelling it "institutionalized back seat skiing". It's not backseat - DIRT applies. Was the alternative, not managing the forces, labelled "institutional chicken plucking"?

Anyway, since it's been chewed to death elsewhere, time to move on.

Fearing vid - interesting to see groomers operating on the side of a mogul field in prime ski time.

 

[geepers]

I've seen that video by Bob several times and its excellent, of course. One thing to point out in that animation is how vigorously the figure pushes its hands forward as the feet come up toward its chest. The captions don't mention this move, but Bob must certainly have thought it important enough to include it in the animation. Perhaps I am noticing it this time around because I've only just started using that move this past season. A light switched on in my head when I began including box jumps in my gym workouts last summer and I found that the jumps were much more successful if I actively pushed my hands forward as I landed on the box. Otherwise, I'd fall backwards off box about half the time. Last season I started concentrating on using that move in my bump runs, and it took my skiing up another notch. And a big notch at that.

Edit- Some of you might remember the old "stick 'em in the toes, punch 'em in the nose" mantra for pole plants in the bumps. I like to quote that when I'm working with someone whose hands tend to lag behind in the bumps. "Stick 'em in the toes" for the active pole plant on the top, or just beyond the top, of the bump. "Punch 'em in the nose" for the active movement of the hand to keep it forward. Of course, it's best to have that move evolve into keeping the hands quietly in front, as emulated by that skier in the video with the white patches on his knees. I'm not there yet.

Another of Bob's animations...

Mr Moose shot this footage of the last lift served run on Superstar two days ago.

Still skiing 18th May - awesome!

 

[skier]

Yep, I just don't get this labelling it "institutionalized back seat skiing". It's not backseat - DIRT applies. Was the alternative, not managing the forces, labelled "institutional chicken plucking"?

Anyway, since it's been chewed to death elsewhere, time to move on.

Fearing vid - interesting to see groomers operating on the side of a mogul field in prime ski time.

If you look at the skiing, you can see that sometimes some of these skiers are way back, much more than skiers from other disciplines. It's as if there's a seat behind them and they are sitting down, thus "back seat skiing". Maybe you are working with a different definition. When most of the teachers demonstrate and teach skiing from the back seat, then it's not a student making a mistake it's a predominant style taught by an instructional institute, so I called that "institutionalized back seat skiing". It's skiing from the back seat, but it's what many people teach in an instructional institute. There is no doubt in my mind that it is sometimes back seat skiing. The only question is if it matters. I think we answered that pretty well. It doesn't affect their skiing in terms of their goals, so it doesn't matter for them. They are often forward or centered at times when it matters for them. Based on the teachings of some of the best mogul skiers in the world, it probably would affect them if they took on similar goals to comp mogul skiers.

 

[geepers]

If you look at the skiing, you can see that sometimes some of these skiers are way back, much more than skiers from other disciplines. It's as if there's a seat behind them and they are sitting down, thus "back seat skiing". Maybe you are working with a different definition. When most of the teachers demonstrate and teach skiing from the back seat, then it's not a student making a mistake it's a predominant style taught by an instructional institute, so I called that "institutionalized back seat skiing". It's skiing from the back seat, but it's what many people teach in an instructional institute. There is no doubt in my mind that it is sometimes back seat skiing. The only question is if it matters. I think we answered that pretty well. It doesn't affect their skiing in terms of their goals, so it doesn't matter for them. They are often forward or centered at times when it matters for them. Based on the teachings of some of the best mogul skiers in the world, it probably would affect them if they took on similar goals to comp mogul skiers.

Appreciate your point - context (the skier's goal) is all important.

It would help to have a common understanding of "back seat". I would call it back seat skiing when the COM is behind the BAS to the point where the skier has to utilise muscle to maintain fore/aft balance. Basically to prevent going further back in this case. If the skier has to support their COM via the quads it's going to be a short ski day. If, OTOH the skier is managing the forces that affect fore/aft balance and supports their COM without inefficient use of muscle then they aren't back seat. They are balanced.

 

[James]

If you look at the skiing, you can see that sometimes some of these skiers are way back, much more than skiers from other disciplines. It's as if there's a seat behind them and they are sitting down, thus "back seat skiing".

Hmmm... really not all that different. Here's slalom:

yourskicoach.com

NY Times
Mikaela at Sochi

Close up of above image.

 

[jack97]

Hmmm... really not all that different. Here's slalom:

View attachment 46414
yourskicoach.com

View attachment 46415
NY Times
Mikaela at Sochi

View attachment 46416
Close up of above image.

Yes there is a major difference, those slalom pics are of competition level skiers and are taught to ski that way to get thru the gates. Yet in their discipline, competition level mogul coaches do not teach the "move feet forward" around the face of the bumps or keeping the "cuff" neutral, only ski instructors teach that. I asked this every now and then, does any one have video of a mogul coach (comp level) who teaches "moving feet forward", "cuff neutral' or the dolphin turns as a drill?,

 

[skier]

Hmmm... really not all that different. Here's slalom:

There's a phase of the turn in mogul skiing where everyone is further back compared to other phases of the turn. You showed that's true with Slalom skiing as well. The particular mogul style in question tends to be further back than comp mogul skiers during that phase of the turn, and they stay back through the next phase of the turn where comp mogul skiers are very careful to be forward with shin pressure. I've tried to specify that, but it's over several posts, and maybe wasn't clear.

Comp mogul skiers tend to ski with continuous shin pressure shifting that pressure from one ski to the other ski. When they ski up a ridge rising out of a deep trench they will be further back. There are different styles among comp mogul skiers and some will be further back than others. Moseley jumps over that ridge, "jump the chain link fence", and he describes that the reason is to be early with his edges on the backside to keep from blowing up. Since he jumps over that ridge he never has to ski up it, therefore he's able to stay forward. Other skiers may take a path higher up on the front face, when they can, to keep from being as far back as skiers that go down into the trench. In general, mogul skiers try to keep their feet back when they absorb, so that they will be forward at the right moment. Other non-comp styles actively push the feet forward just before absorption so that the feet do not stay under the skier, then by the time they re-center they've already cleared the back side which is contrary to comp mogul style.

 

[skier]

Appreciate your point - context (the skier's goal) is all important.

It would help to have a common understanding of "back seat". I would call it back seat skiing when the COM is behind the BAS to the point where the skier has to utilise muscle to maintain fore/aft balance. Basically to prevent going further back in this case. If the skier has to support their COM via the quads it's going to be a short ski day. If, OTOH the skier is managing the forces that affect fore/aft balance and supports their COM without inefficient use of muscle then they aren't back seat. They are balanced.

I think that's a useful way of looking at back seat skiing. It frames it in terms of goals. If the goal is to ski efficiently without unnecessary use of muscles, then back seat skiing defeats that goal by putting strain on the quads. The section 8 guy is often weightless when he is in the back seat, and therefore is not straining his quads, so in that regard, back seat skiing doesn't matter. However, efficient muscle use isn't the only goal being defeated by back seat skiing. When in the back seat, the skier can't apply pressure to the cuff, so he's not able to apply shovel pressure which bends the ski for a short radius turn and provides speed control.

There's a mistaken belief by many that speed control comes from slamming into bumps when doing a long series of rapid turns. This is true when skiing from the back seat, so it may be no coincidence that discussions about back seat skiing almost always coincide with discussion about impact in the bumps. But, mogul coaches teach that speed control comes from applying forward pressure on edge early coming across the backside of the bump. Being late on the backside ends up taking lots more energy, so in a way it comes back to efficient use of muscles as well. If you look at some of these skiers that are re-centering after the backside, their entire upper body folds under the impact. Their head comes down. Their shoulders collapse. And, they are skiing relatively slowly with that amount of effort. Many compare the impact of their slow skiing with the impact of comp mogul skiers at world cup speeds, but that's not fair. If you compare for the same speed and bump difficulty, comp mogul skiers are smooth and efficient and their secret is being early with forward pressure on the backside.

 

[geepers]

Yes there is a major difference, those slalom pics are of competition level skiers and are taught to ski that way to get thru the gates. Yet in their discipline, competition level mogul coaches do not teach the "move feet forward" around the face of the bumps or keeping the "cuff" neutral, only ski instructors teach that. I asked this every now and then, does any one have video of a mogul coach (comp level) who teaches "moving feet forward", "cuff neutral' or the dolphin turns as a drill?,

In the other recent thread on moguls ("When to pull back feet") you posted this vid which is a nice side-on view.


From 0:30 Chuck says "Watch how my feet are reaching in front of me for the uphill side of the next mogul. When I hit the mogul I release the tension in my legs and pull my feet back underneath my upper body." And in that bump, and the subsequent bumps, watch his feet move forward into the bump, up bump, back, down. Could call it as back pedalling a bike with both legs although Chuck calls it 'punch and release'. But, hey, what's in a name.

Is this the Chuck Martin who was 14th in moguls at 1992 Winter Olympics or some other Chuck? That was a while back...

 

[geepers]

back seat

I suspect you'd have us seeing back seat everywhere. Look Nelson's doing it now...

 

[skier]

In the other recent thread on moguls ("When to pull back feet") you posted this vid which is a nice side-on view.


From 0:30 Chuck says "Watch how my feet are reaching in front of me for the uphill side of the next mogul. When I hit the mogul I release the tension in my legs and pull my feet back underneath my upper body." And in that bump, and the subsequent bumps, watch his feet move forward into the bump, up bump, back, down. Could call it as back pedalling a bike with both legs although Chuck calls it 'punch and release'. But, hey, what's in a name.

Is this the Chuck Martin who was 14th in moguls at 1992 Winter Olympics or some other Chuck? That was a while back...

Yes, Chuck Martin is awesome. His skiing is truly an example of the unrivaled excellence that can be achieved with comp mogul technique.

I said often that there are times when comp mogul skiers are back. The point of that clip is not to push your feet forward. The point is to pull your feet back. Getting back happens naturally just by leaning on the cuffs as the skis change angles. If you push your feet forward, then you end up even further back than what's natural. The result is that the skis shoot out, and you stay back during the next phase of the turn where Chuck Martin is clearly not back.

 

[skier]

I suspect you'd have us seeing back seat everywhere. Look Nelson's doing it now...

That's at different phases of the turn. This is where mogul skiers are often back. The picture that I put up a while ago is at a different phase of the turn. It's at a phase of the turn where comp mogul coaches are adamant that you must be forward to reliably make rapid turns with speed control.

 

[Doby Man]

Re: Comparing the backseat issue between moguls and SL just won’t work. That is because the reverse undulation of the front side of moguls require a backseat position to be stacked against the oncoming forces, as if they are skiing “uphill”, that typically do not exist in SL. Back seat in SL has to be during the non-loading phase of the turn that is for “mobility” while the backseat position in moguls is for simply being stacked for “stability” in the load bearing phase. Almost an opposite intent of function.

 

[skier]

Here's for equivalent phases of the turn. When the skis point up, it's not uncommon to see the skier back. When the skis point down, the skier should already be forward. Though, if they are not aiming for speed control, if they are just ripping at super fast speeds, you might see them more centered, because they are letting up on their speed control.

 

[James]

Re: Comparing the backseat issue between moguls and SL just won’t work. That is because the reverse undulation of the front side of moguls require a backseat position to be stacked against the oncoming forces, as if they are skiing “uphill”, that typically do not exist in SL. Back seat in SL has to be during the non-loading phase of the turn that is for “mobility” while the backseat position in moguls is for simply being stacked for “stability” in the load bearing phase. Almost an opposite intent of function.

In skiing it's referred to "the virtual bump" for a reason. There are often forces that must be absorbed. Then the skis take a different path.
Slalom has a huge lateral move because ot the separation in line of the skis and body. There's also large turning forces that if the skier were over their skis, the turn simply couldn't be made or if so they would high side and crash. One doesn't have that in direct line mogul skiing.

 

[Doby Man]

That is an excellent counter point with good visual support!

 

[geepers]

Yes, Chuck Martin is awesome. His skiing is truly an example of the unrivaled excellence that can be achieved with comp mogul technique.

I said often that there are times when comp mogul skiers are back. The point of that clip is not to push your feet forward. The point is to pull your feet back. Getting back happens naturally just by leaning on the cuffs as the skis change angles. If you push your feet forward, then you end up even further back than what's natural. The result is that the skis shoot out, and you stay back during the next phase of the turn where Chuck Martin is clearly not back.

Chuck's dialog and the footage shows clearly that Chuck is pushing his feet slightly ahead (Chuck's 'punch') approaching the bump and tucking his feet under at the crest (Chuck's 'release'). These are not big bumps with a rapid rise to the face so the size of the forward movement is quite small but it is there to plainly see, exactly in line with his dialog.

Yes, had Chuck put his feet too far forward and kept them in front of him over the top then he would have been too far back and his skis would have shot out from under him.

But he didn't.