Favorite Bumps/Mogul Videos for tips

[tball]

It's a personal preference and style thing, but I just don't like dolphin turns. I'm pretty sure you won't see Jonny Moseley or Nelson Carmichael doing silly dolphin turns in the bumps just to show they can.

When Jonny and Nelson get air, they are going down the hill, not across it! That's how you spice up your bump skiing. Or, go faster.

 

[jack97]

When Jonny and Nelson get air, they are going down the hill, not across it!

QFT

 

[RickyG]

Nelson Carmichael has been my mogul coach for years (he has no ides...I've worn out the videos...wish there were DVD)s. As long as I'm pointing out skiers that have had a large impact on my skiing number one is Corky Fowler.

 

[geepers]

IMO, the point about Moseley's vid on #17 is to transition early. That "jumping" he mentions is really an explosive way of up un-weighting. In addition, if your "jumping" from your old downhill leg at the start of the transition, that means your weighting that dh ski going into the face of the bump. This somewhat counters to the approach of letting the skis go forward as one approaches the face of the bump.

I see "aged" skiers who learned on older tech skis, they great single leg balance, weight transition and can handle the bumps.

Hmmm...that the kick forward of the feet is a relatively small move that's done as the ski tips start to go up the bump. It's a move of the feet and not a move of the whole body as it's much quicker way to get the feet a little ahead of the body as in very short order the feet is going to get slowed down as the skis start up the bump. The whole point is that we are balanced body over feet on top of the bump. Going into the downside of the bump the feet are tucked back - again a relatively small, quick move - otherwise our body is going to get left behind as the feet shoot out in front. And that tuck is also going to dip our ski tips into the trough keeping them in contact with the snow.

The JM vid is such a short extract from a lesson so it's hard to know the context. Is he making a point for a particular student, for a certain situation, or...? (If there's one thing I've learnt about high grade instructors is that context is everything.) Note that JM is on a flat area above the trough. If using a flat spot like that either the 'kick' forward wasn't necessary or was all in the past.

If I ever happened to be in a lesson with JM I'd be taking in as much as possible, trying whatever he suggested that didn't seem too big a threat to life and limb and seeing if I could make any use of it in my skiing. In this case I'm not sure I see the need for "jumping and pushing hips forward" before the tips even get to the lip. Seems like a lot of effort and just easier to tuck feet under as they get to the lip to retain balance and get the tips back on the snow. But, again, what's the context? It may be the perfect move in a given situation or for a given skier. Certainly what he demos at 1:02 doesn't seem to show up as he skis 1:10 until the end.

If those 'aged' skiers do the zipper line like JM can then hats off to them. Mostly I'm (imperfectly) trying to avoid the sound JM makes at 1:12.

Yes, most of us will never ski like Moseley... no matter what age we are....

I've seen skiers claim that they ski with a low impact style, but then you look at them, and on every bump their head jolts down. If you put a helmet cam on them, the footage would be garbage even when they are skiing slowly. There's allot of marketing going on.

Those dolphin turns take a fair amount of athleticism. It's not more attainable than Moseley's style, though perhaps more attainable than Moseley's speed.

Here's a mogul video I like. Look at his head and shoulders, very very little impact, much less than just about anyone else. It's only lack of technique that keeps us from skiing like that, not wear and tear.

Let's see: an Olympic Medalist vs an aging Aussie recreational skier. Gee, I wonder who can control their head the best? (Hint - put $10 on Nelson...)

Mind, here's another clip of Nelson and I can absolutely guarantee less hair movement in my bump skiing.

Dolphins on a smooth groomer - ugh. Where there's a little ridge down the hill much easier.

 

[geepers]

It's a personal preference and style thing, but I just don't like dolphin turns. I'm pretty sure you won't see Jonny Moseley or Nelson Carmichael doing silly dolphin turns in the bumps just to show they can.

When Jonny and Nelson get air, they are going down the hill, not across it! That's how you spice up your bump skiing. Or, go faster.

Like this?

 

[skier]

Let's see: an Olympic Medalist vs an aging Aussie recreational skier. Gee, I wonder who can control their head the best? (Hint - put $10 on Nelson...)

Mind, here's another clip of Nelson and I can absolutely guarantee less hair movement in my bump skiing.

Dolphins on a smooth groomer - ugh. Where there's a little ridge down the hill much easier.

That's one of the only videos out there with challenging hard packed bumps. That's the kind of terrain where most people blow up, and there's no space for a long rounded dolphin turn recovery which is why you never see any video of anyone doing it on those kinds of bumps. But certainly he does have more impact on that run, which is maybe another reason why most people are in the lodge getting a beer on those days.

It's not just that Nelson C is an Olympic mogul skier. He also has incredible technique. There are fundamental differences between his technique and other techniques. Competition mogul coaches do not teach pushing the feet forward.

 

[skier]

Geepers,

I don't want it to seem like I'm bashing the Section 8 videos. I think its great skiing. I watched the videos several times. Thanks for posting! I just enjoy analyzing different techniques. Allot is stylistic preference, but there are a few functional differences.

I think there's this mistaken belief that skiers like Nelson Carmichael control speed by bashing into bumps. It's not that his techniques lead to wear and tear, it's that his techniques allow skiing faster and more aggressive in tough bumps which can lead to more impact. Actually, his techniques are meant to reduce impact to enable skiing at world cup speeds. So, there's a bit of false advertising out there when people try to sell their technique as less impact. Often you'll see people skiing with much less speed and have much more impact than skiers like Nelson Carmichael. One of the reasons is because of being late on the backside. Everyone needs to pull their feet back to re-center. But, when you push your feet forward, it takes even more time to re-center, which makes you late on the backside causing you to land on that next bump creating more impact. Or, it leads to slower skiing because of doing dolphin turn recoveries followed by a big arc (when there's space). Though, it obviously works in many situations and looks fun. Here's a little more about what I mean without that jump that Moseley talks about:

 

[jack97]

Hmmm...that the kick forward of the feet is a relatively small move that's done as the ski tips start to go up the bump. It's a move of the feet and not a move of the whole body as it's much quicker way to get the feet a little ahead of the body as in very short order the feet is going to get slowed down as the skis start up the bump.

One can lose of control by jetting out even at the face of the bumps.

 

[geepers]

That's one of the only videos out there with challenging hard packed bumps.

He he. I grew up (and got older) skiing those conditions. In Australia we are subject to long periods of fine weather and hard packed, skied out snow. (It can also be great at times...)

There's a few passages in the Section 8 P2P V2 of Tobian skiing icy, firm bumps. You can hear the ice scraping - yep, one of those melt/freeze morning. It's a single line mogul run so no bump shopping options. Tobian doing the same nice rounded turn shape, same excellent speed control all the way down. (The only place I've seen that footage is in the purchased part so can't share it here.)

and there's no space for a long rounded dolphin turn recovery

But, when you push your feet forward, it takes even more time to re-center

I was a bit puzzled by those comments as they don't fit my experience. But I'm guessing you have in mind a single, man-made mogul line on a comp course, skied at speed? In which case I'll take your word for it.

Personally I've found that little kick forward a great help in maintaining balance in the bumps. Which in turn means more options, better speed control and less impacts. But I have in mind a natural mogul field with multiple line options at lower speeds.

And, for something a little different...

 

[geepers]

One can lose of control by jetting out even at the face of the bumps.

Can also fall over in the lift line.

Moral of the story: keep your BAS in the right position to manage the forces on your COM.

 

[skier]

I was a bit puzzled by those comments as they don't fit my experience. But I'm guessing you have in mind a single, man-made mogul line on a comp course, skied at speed? In which case I'll take your word for it.

When the front face of the next bump points across the hill, there's space to recover from the back seat. But, sometimes the front face points much more down the hill, and if you land on it, it's just a launching pad and you'll either blow up or have to bail. It doesn't have to be machine made bumps. It just has to be a slope with mostly fast skiers. I've got two screen shots to show what I mean. From his position in the first picture, he recovers by landing on the front face of the next bump and is able to turn his skis sideways enough to control his speed, which is shown by the blue line in the second picture. If that front face had an angle more like the red line, which you often find in very aggressive bump lines, then there's no space to turn his skis sideways and he's got no speed control.

 

[geepers]

...space to recover from the back seat.

It's not intended to be a backseat move. Same topic, slightly different explanation. 3:58 onwards if you are in a hurry.

 

[skier]

It's not intended to be a backseat move.

It's institutionalized back seat skiing.... if it works it's fine, until it doesn't work....

 

[geepers]

It's institutionalized back seat skiing.... if it works it's fine, until it doesn't work....

Ok, I'm with you. We're gonna tell both the PSIA and CSIA that their doing and teaching it all wrong. On the basis that their stuff works until it doesn't.

Yeah... nah.

Let's just divy up action. I'll stay here and guard the beers while you go do the telling bit.

Should also let the comp coaches know about that works until it doesn't?

 

[jack97]

Should also let the comp coaches know about that works until it doesn't?

Holy hyperbole!!!

Best of luck in using the "not intended to be a backseat move" but is really a backseat move.

 

[skier]

Ok, I'm with you. We're gonna tell both the PSIA and CSIA that their doing and teaching it all wrong. On the basis that their stuff works until it doesn't.

Yeah... nah.

Let's just divy up action. I'll stay here and guard the beers while you go do the telling bit.

Should also let the comp coaches know about that works until it doesn't?

You know what this always reminds me of? Those old Kung Fu movies where they would argue over whose style is better, Drunken Monkey or Dragon.

There are several different instructional organizations, and members don't always say the same thing. When two experts say opposite things, how do you know who's right? At that point we have to think for ourselves, and here's what I think. Often it's just aesthetics, but sometimes not. It's not in this case. Comp mogul folks have different goals. They try to ski down the fall line with short radius turns no matter how hard the course. They have evolved a technique that is second to none for accomplishing that goal. You said it yourself, you use line choice instead.

Everyone gets back as they head up a bump. Comp mogul folks have all sorts of different teaching metaphors for getting forward early on the backside such as clearing the hips, jumping a chain link fence, foot containment, or knees forward. But, they all agree that in that first picture in my last post, it's too late. You can't be that far back at that point in the turn and reliably make that next turn while staying fluid and balanced. Does it matter? There are some aesthetic preferences that develop after years of training, but if you're getting down the mountain, balanced, having a good time, I don't think it much matters. But, if some of these folks try to follow some of the same lines as comp mogul folks, then it would matter. Therefore, it's fine until it doesn't work to meet a goal.

On topic, here's a mogul video with tips that I think are great. Listen at 2:50, then compare skiers with those tips in mind. "No Bueno on that ever." If you end up watching the whole video, you may notice some other divergences in technique.

 

[tball]

I love how red course at 1:23 was able to hold it together and stick his air. Amazing

He shows comp bump skiers can ski the tops if they need too, and probably got extra points for no dolphin turns!

 

[geepers]

You know what this always reminds me of? Those old Kung Fu movies where they would argue over whose style is better, Drunken Monkey or Dragon.

There are several different instructional organizations, and members don't always say the same thing. When two experts say opposite things, how do you know who's right? At that point we have to think for ourselves, and here's what I think. Often it's just aesthetics, but sometimes not. It's not in this case. Comp mogul folks have different goals. They try to ski down the fall line with short radius turns no matter how hard the course. They have evolved a technique that is second to none for accomplishing that goal. You said it yourself, you use line choice instead.

Everyone gets back as they head up a bump. Comp mogul folks have all sorts of different teaching metaphors for getting forward early on the backside such as clearing the hips, jumping a chain link fence, foot containment, or knees forward. But, they all agree that in that first picture in my last post, it's too late. You can't be that far back at that point in the turn and reliably make that next turn while staying fluid and balanced. Does it matter? There are some aesthetic preferences that develop after years of training, but if you're getting down the mountain, balanced, having a good time, I don't think it much matters. But, if some of these folks try to follow some of the same lines as comp mogul folks, then it would matter. Therefore, it's fine until it doesn't work to meet a goal.

On topic, here's a mogul video with tips that I think are great. Listen at 2:50, then compare skiers with those tips in mind. "No Bueno on that ever." If you end up watching the whole video, you may notice some other divergences in technique.

That vid is good in helping me understand the context for your POV. One advantage of this type of leisurely communication (about one post per day) is that it allow the time to understand. It's one of the things that drives me nuts about ski instructing out on the hill - not enough time to get to a full understanding of what instructor B is saying when instructor A said something different yesterday. I've come to understand that context is everything - A and B are often talking about different circumstances (terrain, snow type, skier ability, ...). That said I've yet to have a CSIA instructor who diverges far from the technique as described by Section 8 or Jonathan Ballou keeping in mind my sample size is necessarily very small.

Skiing is an open sport and there's not any one approach that covers everything or is optimal for any given skier/situation. The comp zipper-line approach to moguls doesn't suit me for a variety of reasons mostly to do with self-preservation, perceived or otherwise. The style is great to watch and looks a lot of fun to ski. But I wince at the apparent jolts and the speeds are way too high for me in the event of a mistake. No way could I effectively absorb those impacts in rapid succession. I have no idea of your age is but I find I am getting progressively more candy-arsed past 60. Don't get me wrong - still trying to do those bumps with some verve and flair. But it'll be the more rounded line.

Your point "if some of these folks try to follow some of the same lines as comp mogul folks, then it would matter"... yes, but they aren't. When faced with the same situation as outlined in your still shots I've watched plenty of 'dolphin' skiers simply take air right over the trough. (I don't/can't do that - learning air does not seem look a good percentage bet to me at this point.)

The point at 3 min in your vid re where the raised heel should be...not sure how that works in a natural mogul field when presented with a ridge rising out of deep trench - the tips are going to point up. And if BAS isn't slightly in front of COM (with plenty of absorption) as the skis start uphill then I expect it'll be over-the-handlebars.

At 6 minutes wrt to the edging with the knees... I've just spent the last 2 seasons eliminating most of the inside lateral knee move from my bump skiing. That may or may not be technically correct (*) according to those vid coaches but it sure beats the hell out of arching knees every night. (* The CSIA instructor who 1st noticed and changed that in my skiing worked with junior mogul comp skiers. Been knee pain free since.)

Good discussion. Filed away a couple of points from that vid for and will see how they work on snow.

 

[skier]

The point at 3 min in your vid re where the raised heel should be...not sure how that works in a natural mogul field when presented with a ridge rising out of deep trench - the tips are going to point up. And if BAS isn't slightly in front of COM (with plenty of absorption) as the skis start uphill then I expect it'll be over-the-handlebars.

At 6 minutes wrt to the edging with the knees... I've just spent the last 2 seasons eliminating most of the inside lateral knee move from my bump skiing. That may or may not be technically correct (*) according to those vid coaches but it sure beats the hell out of arching knees every night. (* The CSIA instructor who 1st noticed and changed that in my skiing worked with junior mogul comp skiers. Been knee pain free since.)

Geepers,
Great response! I'm enjoying the conversation.

In regards to the raised heel. Most people when they think of competition mogul skiing think of the competitions. But, their tech works great in natural moguls. I love watching them ski natural moguls much more than the comp fields. The deeper the trench, the more a skier will be back, and the harder it is to contain the feet like in that video. You're right, the tips do point up more. What's important is doing the best not to get back, so that just after the crest the feet can be pulled back quickly. As far as balance goes, absorption takes care of all the concerns. You won't go over the handlebars, because of actively pulling up the feet, so the bump doesn't push on you any way you don't like.

In regards to knee angulation, I think it was exaggerated in that video for illustration. Too much knee angulation is bad when growing high edge angles. You start with knees and ankles, but then hips take over. In mogul skiing they want to be stacked with almost no hip angulation, but they never carve long enough to grow large edge angles. I guess it's like always starting turns never finishing, so knee angulation is fine. Probably the right comp mogul technique would be ok on your knee. There are lots of reasons people say not to learn mogul technique, but most of them are not true, still though it may not be your cup of tea for various other legitimate reasons, and nothing wrong with that.

I'll pm you a video, so you can see where I stand with all this.

 

[geepers]

Holy hyperbole!!!

Best of luck in using the "not intended to be a backseat move" but is really a backseat move.

As a CSIA Lvl4 kept asking us...."Are you sure?"

I'm not freelancing here.