Favorite Bumps/Mogul Videos for tips

[geepers]

Very few videos are as explicit about where and how to turn on the bumps, for beginning bump skiers like me:

What do you guys think is the proper progression from never skiing bumps to learning to ski them? A defined goal on where and how to turn is critical to me.

There's quite a few short vids - the ones you posted, the ones by Alltracks Academy "How To Ski Bumps (Parts 1 ->3) - that discuss line. Those short vids are mostly intended to promote a ski school or a course so they aren't a comprehensive how-to manual.

There's longer vids such as Lito or Section 8. The Lito one is available free and would have been handy to have in 1985. I do find the slo-mo skiing annoying - there's not one second of that vid at normal speed - and it makes things look smoother than they really are. Also, IMO the section on absorption/extension should be up further to the front as it is a key skill in handling the bumps. IMO the Section 8 vid is the probably the most comprehensive but you have to purchase it.

A few issues learning from vids:
1. Any item of advice may not be what you most need to progress at that time
2. There's no feedback on whether or not you are doing something correctly. And if not, how to adjust.
3. There's no-one demo-ing for you in the situations you encounter. The vid doesn't know if you are skiing hard packed icy bumps or ones covered by 15cm of pow.

In terms of where to ski in the bumps that last item can be very important. At times it's very useful to follow some-one skiing at just the right level - not having to think about where to go frees the mind up to concentrate on other aspects of skiing.

 

[jack97]

What do you guys think is the proper progression from never skiing bumps to learning to ski them? A defined goal on where and how to turn is critical to me.

IMO, linking pivot slips and link hockey stops in the bumps as shown shown by Lito's vid is a a great progression. In order to do linked slips you have to be centered on your ski. What you gain from this is balance and controlling the edges in the bump. Even when conditions are non idea or when there's a trouble section, one can slip it or stop if one feels they're one move away from blowing up.

I have seen these mogul freestyle teams and clinics given by mogul coaches use these types of drills in the bump. Below shows it as well and later progression.

 

[skier]

Here's another video showing a progression similar to Jack's recommendations starting at 4:30. There are some very purposeful actions that I'm not so sure about, but I'll bet the progression was carefully designed by a good skier. There's a stem and a step while lifting the inside ski. I worry about adding the stem, because you might not be able to get rid of it, but on the other hand it might be the right first step for someone that can't yet link parallel pivots. Parallel pivots can be tough in very soft conditions. Also in tight bumps, it helps to absorb and pivot on the bump ridge which is a more advanced move.

 

[jack97]

There are some very purposeful actions that I'm not so sure about, but I'll bet the progression was carefully designed by a good skier. There's a stem and a step while lifting the inside ski. I worry about adding the stem, because you might not be able to get rid of it, but on the other hand it might be the right first step for someone that can't yet link parallel pivots.

Chuck Martin likes using the wedge turns for weight shifting and getting that down hill leg flexed forward. Never seen nor heard of him using that in the bumps tho. As you noted, the stem and wedge has side effects that needs to be "unlearned".

 

[skier]

Chuck Martin likes using the wedge turns for weight shifting and getting that down hill leg flexed forward. Never seen nor heard of him using that in the bumps tho. As you noted, the stem and wedge has side effects that needs to be "unlearned".

That's right, the best bump progression begins on groomed slopes. A common progression is the wedge turn, then javelin turns with forward pressure while shining those frogs with the flashlight as Guy in Shorts said. The point is to learn balance on one leg with continuous shin pressure and knee angulation to link quick turns with speed control. Then bring that into the bumps by adding absorption and extension timed to reduce weight for a pivot on each crest.

 

[geepers]

What do you guys think is the proper progression from never skiing bumps to learning to ski them? A defined goal on where and how to turn is critical to me.

Thinking a little more about this, and the difficulty of going from zero to hero by watching vid tips, I can't help wondering if this is going to give you the type of results you are after. Would you try to teach your kids to drive a car by video?

Where I ski in Canada, every Wednesday afternoon there's a bump clinic. Being bumps they only assign competent instructors. It tends to have a low attendance rate so lots of individual attention - sometimes I've basically had a private for the cost of a public. If you have anything like that on your mountain worth checking it out. Alternatively a special course may be best. Either way, a guided approach can save accidental wear and tear.

If you do decide to do it on your own then one thing that I would recommend is to learn to absorb/extend on a traversing line. Sooner rather than later. Not matter how carefully we may progress, at some point in our quest for a flowing, exciting run we get going a little quicker than intended or get pushed off-line. It's very necessary to have the ability to bail across the hill.

 

[Tim Hodgson]

"learn to absorb/extend on a traversing line"

You mean traverse across a bump field absorbing and extending?

 

[skier]

Thinking a little more about this, and the difficulty of going from zero to hero by watching vid tips, I can't help wondering if this is going to give you the type of results you are after. Would you try to teach your kids to drive a car by video?

Where I ski in Canada, every Wednesday afternoon there's a bump clinic. Being bumps they only assign competent instructors. It tends to have a low attendance rate so lots of individual attention - sometimes I've basically had a private for the cost of a public. If you have anything like that on your mountain worth checking it out. Alternatively a special course may be best. Either way, a guided approach can save accidental wear and tear.

If you do decide to do it on your own then one thing that I would recommend is to learn to absorb/extend on a traversing line. Sooner rather than later. Not matter how carefully we may progress, at some point in our quest for a flowing, exciting run we get going a little quicker than intended or get pushed off-line. It's very necessary to have the ability to bail across the hill.

Tim is a level 2 PSIA instructor from Kirkwood. Kirkwood is a great place to ski! It's a local favorite at Tahoe. He skis with level 3 instructors. I interpret his questions to mean that he's exploring some of our perspectives to see if there's anything useful for his bump skiing or his teachings. One advantage of a forum like this is that it's not just all one group. This tends to lead to some fights, but with Tim's humble nature and open mind, a forum can also be a great place to hear some ideas you might not encounter in your own circles.

 

[geepers]

You mean traverse across a bump field absorbing and extending?

Yes.

But... with your background and skiing buddies (re skier's post) you'll be sweet. From the way you asked I was a tad concerned that it could end badly.

 

[Tim Hodgson]

skier thanks for your support!
Let me say why I am here: To improve my personal skiing and, as a result, to improve my teaching.

Because until last Summer as a part-time instructor (now with a 20-year pin), I was on cruise control, doing the same thing I had been doing for the past 10 years. Teaching with enthusiasm, but not really taking an active involvement in my own personal progress. Trying every fad that my peers would suggest but not really understanding where, what, how and why.

So here I am trying to learn as much as possible to be able to be worthy of my request next season to my mountain's trainer and to my ski school for some personal observation and coaching. Which is what geepers correctly suggests and is what I know I need.

I figure at 64, that my trainer and my ski school won't want to put much effort into my progress unless I can demonstrate that I am getting into shape, am willing to listen, and am willing to learn to break from my previous movement pattern(s).

I don't know if you PSIA Level III and CSIA Level III and IV guys and gals know how confusing learning how to ski really is.

If I could just shut up and ski, I would.

But I am condemned to actively learning the terminology, the various parts/features of the terrain and the application of the Five Skiing Fundamentals to tell me where, what, how and why to manipulate my skis on a particular feature.

1. Control the relationship of the center of mass to the base of support to direct pressure along the length of the skis
2. Control pressure from ski to ski and direct pressure toward the outside ski
3. Control edge angles through a combination of inclination and angulation
4. Control the skis rotation (turning, pivoting, steering) with leg rotation, separate from the upper body
5. Regulate the magnitude of pressure created through ski/snow interaction

For Christ's sake, I just learned last Summer what "drift" is and that it can be a good thing. That is how retarded my personal skiing was and still is!

geepers, I totally lack flexion. And I hop like a chicken to extend. (So, it is easy for me to blame my boots! and/or my knees or my lack of leg strength.) I will take you up on multiple bump field traverses next season with softer boots ... and... stronger legs!

 

[skier]

And I hop like a chicken to extend. (So, it is easy for me to blame my boots! and/or my knees or my lack of leg strength.) I will take you up on multiple bump field traverses next season with softer boots ... and... stronger legs!

I'd like to see that chicken hop. When extending with the feet out in front, all the myths about zipper line skiing come true. It either takes lots of impact and/or serious fitness and strength. But, pulling the feet back gives extension for free with very little exertion. The skis, boots, and slope do all the work.

 

[geepers]

skier thanks for your support!
Let me say why I am here: To improve my personal skiing and, as a result, to improve my teaching.

Because until last Summer as a part-time instructor (now with a 20-year pin), I was on cruise control, doing the same thing I had been doing for the past 10 years. Teaching with enthusiasm, but not really taking an active involvement in my own personal progress. Trying every fad that my peers would suggest but not really understanding where, what, how and why.

So here I am trying to learn as much as possible to be able to be worthy of my request next season to my mountain's trainer and to my ski school for some personal observation and coaching. Which is what geepers correctly suggests and is what I know I need.

I figure at 64, that my trainer and my ski school won't want to put much effort into my progress unless I can demonstrate that I am getting into shape, am willing to listen, and am willing to learn to break from my previous movement pattern(s).

I don't know if you PSIA Level III and CSIA Level III and IV guys and gals know how confusing learning how to ski really is.

If I could just shut up and ski, I would.

But I am condemned to actively learning the terminology, the various parts/features of the terrain and the application of the Five Skiing Fundamentals to tell me where, what, how and why to manipulate my skis on a particular feature.

1. Control the relationship of the center of mass to the base of support to direct pressure along the length of the skis
2. Control pressure from ski to ski and direct pressure toward the outside ski
3. Control edge angles through a combination of inclination and angulation
4. Control the skis rotation (turning, pivoting, steering) with leg rotation, separate from the upper body
5. Regulate the magnitude of pressure created through ski/snow interaction

For Christ's sake, I just learned last Summer what "drift" is and that it can be a good thing. That is how retarded my personal skiing was and still is!

geepers, I totally lack flexion. And I hop like a chicken to extend. (So, it is easy for me to blame my boots! and/or my knees or my lack of leg strength.) I will take you up on multiple bump field traverses next season with softer boots ... and... stronger legs!

Yep Tim, I hear you. Not far behind you in the age stakes. And as another similar aged guy in our training group last season commented, 60+ y/o instructors aren't the long term future of the ski industry. So we have to show more commitment than the youngsters. Although they seem to have ....ah... active social lives... which goes some small way to mollifying all that youth and athleticism.

Agree that it is not easy to always grasp what the ski gods are communicating. It can seem so contradictory at times. I put this down to understanding the situation on snow and the degree of precision in our skiing - not much point in fine tuning until some larger issues are under control. On situation, I seem to have the unfortunate habit of skiing today's situation with adaptions for yesterday's conditions.

5 skiing fundamental? I've been learning under CSIA which has reduced from 5 fundamentals to 4 tech reference points. Hopefully that makes it 20% easier to learn.

In any case, go for it, and keep us updated of progress.

 

[Mike King]

I've been learning under CSIA which has reduced from 5 fundamentals to 4 tech reference points. Hopefully that makes it 20% easier to learn.

What are they?

And does that make it 20% easier to pass your level 3?

 

[geepers]

What are they?

And does that make it 20% easier to pass your level 3?

Need all the 'easier' I can get.

 

[Mike King]

Interesting. I'm not sure how the first and the fourth really help. Of course, the PSIA rewrite of the technical manual that resulted in the 5 fundamentals did a pretty good job of obscuring the message.

Mike

 

[wutangclan]

5 skiing fundamental? I've been learning under CSIA which has reduced from 5 fundamentals to 4 tech reference points. Hopefully that makes it 20% easier to learn.

CSIA insider tip: the entire organization has mixed feelings with the current Tech Ref, and is especially dissatisified with point #4. Leadership has hinted that there will be a rewrite of #4 by next winter. Maybe they'll pull hard on the thread and unravel everything?

Interesting. I'm not sure how the first and the fourth really help.

What a mouthful they are, and in practice we (CSIA trainers) shorten/simplify them so that it makes sense to trainees. And we do NOT to use them with the public, because ... come on, they be like "WTF?".

#1 - "Use of all joints help maintain balance, providing the ability to manage forces acting on the ski and the skier."

Basically we're telling peeps that if you have a medium bend in limb joints (ankles, knees, hips, elbows), you'll balance easily and naturally. The instructor's role is to activate any immobile joints and demonstrate what "medium" is.

#4 - "Coordinated movement patterns direct the forces acting on the skis and the momentum of the skier from turn to turn."

Holy sh**, right? In practice, we rarely talk about this because a) it's crazy convoluted, and b) most "begintermediate" customers/instructors have their hands full working on #1, #2 and #3. The only time I've experienced #4 being taught in detail was at the Level 4 course, and it was explained as a focus on the transition phase of the turn, i.e. working on legs crossing under or the torso toppling, flex-to-release, etc.

I understand that the intent behind the Tech Ref was to capture a cause-effect relationship in each statement, but they're so complicated as a result that my trainees can never remember them. Anyway -- skiing is complicated, I don't think there's any perfect way to state the core concepts, which is why all the instructor organizations keep rewriting the statements over and over again. It is what it is.

 

[Mike King]

Basically we're telling peeps that if you have a medium bend in limb joints (ankles, knees, hips, elbows), you'll balance easily and naturally. The instructor's role is to activate any immobile joints and demonstrate what "medium" is.

Ok, but we also don't want folk to be skiing in a static "medium" bend either. So, how do you coach what degree of bend in what phase of the turn? To say nothing about flex/extension of the inside/outside limb...

#4 - "Coordinated movement patterns direct the forces acting on the skis and the momentum of the skier from turn to turn."

Holy sh**, right? In practice, we rarely talk about this because a) it's crazy convoluted, and b) most "begintermediate" customers/instructors have their hands full working on #1, #2 and #3. The only time I've experienced #4 being taught in detail was at the Level 4 course, and it was explained as a focus on the transition phase of the turn, i.e. working on legs crossing under or the torso toppling, flex-to-release, etc.

I can kind of see that, but I could also see this as a focus on where momentum is taking you out of the turn -- across the hill or down the hill? That is, was maximum pressure near the apex of the turn so that the finish will take you across the hill (and preserve momentum) or was it late with resulting washout of the ski down the hill?

While the five fundamentals in PSIA have become rather esoteric, they do describe elements of ski performance. As a result, they provide a framework for movement analysis, that is, looking at a skier and analyzing ski performance. Then we can link body movements that result in the ski performance. This provides a mechanism to describe, not judge, but describe what's happening in a ski turn.

I'm not sure how I'd use the CSIA technical reference. What do you guys see as the mechanism to use it?

Mike

 

[Doby Man]

I hate to burst a bunch of people’s bubble but, it is pretty obvious that the PSIA boosted their idea of the five fundamentals from my psychiatrist’s website:

The five fundamentals of mental health:

1. Control the relationship of the center of the universe to the base of your mind to direct pressure along the length of your day
2. Control pressure from job to wife and direct pressure toward the outside of where they have you pinned down
3. Control your angle through a combination of inclination and manipulation
4. Control the mind’s rotation (turning, pivoting, steering) with drug rotation to separate it from the upper body
5. Regulate the magnitude of pressure created in your head through ski/snow interaction … every day

As well, I have evidence that the CSIA’s idea for four fundamentals was was boosted from a certain devil worship website, but I won’t get into it. It’s very disturbing ...

 

[geepers]

CSIA insider tip: the entire organization has mixed feelings with the current Tech Ref, and is especially dissatisified with point #4. Leadership has hinted that there will be a rewrite of #4 by next winter. Maybe they'll pull hard on the thread and unravel everything?



What a mouthful they are, and in practice we (CSIA trainers) shorten/simplify them so that it makes sense to trainees. And we do NOT to use them with the public, because ... come on, they be like "WTF?".

#1 - "Use of all joints help maintain balance, providing the ability to manage forces acting on the ski and the skier."

Basically we're telling peeps that if you have a medium bend in limb joints (ankles, knees, hips, elbows), you'll balance easily and naturally. The instructor's role is to activate any immobile joints and demonstrate what "medium" is.

#4 - "Coordinated movement patterns direct the forces acting on the skis and the momentum of the skier from turn to turn."

Holy sh**, right? In practice, we rarely talk about this because a) it's crazy convoluted, and b) most "begintermediate" customers/instructors have their hands full working on #1, #2 and #3. The only time I've experienced #4 being taught in detail was at the Level 4 course, and it was explained as a focus on the transition phase of the turn, i.e. working on legs crossing under or the torso toppling, flex-to-release, etc.

I understand that the intent behind the Tech Ref was to capture a cause-effect relationship in each statement, but they're so complicated as a result that my trainees can never remember them. Anyway -- skiing is complicated, I don't think there's any perfect way to state the core concepts, which is why all the instructor organizations keep rewriting the statements over and over again. It is what it is.

Interesting. I'm new to all this CSIA terminology - only did L1 and L2 in Feb 2017 - so not yet morphed into the jaded cynic I am about, say, business management theory.

As I understand it, CSIA used to have the 5 Fundamentals:
Foundation skills: 1. Stance and balance 2. Timing and co-ordination
Steering skills: 3. Pivoting 4. Edging 5. Pressure control

In L1 and L2 there was no mention of the 5. I only found out about them by accident watching the ski training videos from Section 8 which were made a few years back. Willing to bet that there will be plenty of long term CSIA instructors out there who still think 5 fundamentals and may not know (or even heard of) the 4 Tech Refs.

Probably doesn't make a whole heap of difference whether these things are stated as 4 or 5 or whatever. The body of knowledge behind the points (eg what stance, which joints, balance on what) is the important thing. My instructing experience is incredibly limited - so for what it's worth I found the 4 tech ref points a good start in evaluating a skier given that it is a multi-level (initiation/acquisition/consolidation/refinement/etc). .

In the L3 training we did get "strongly encouraged" to relate feedback to the relevant Tech Ref point. Not necessarily a verbatim recital but enough to make it clear to the assessors they were in our thinking.

 

[geepers]

While the five fundamentals in PSIA have become rather esoteric, they do describe elements of ski performance. As a result, they provide a framework for movement analysis, that is, looking at a skier and analyzing ski performance. Then we can link body movements that result in the ski performance. This provides a mechanism to describe, not judge, but describe what's happening in a ski turn.

I'm not sure how I'd use the CSIA technical reference. What do you guys see as the mechanism to use it?

Mike

I'm gonna reply from the newbie perspective. That way I can get some MA on my understanding...

The 4 Tech Refs are hierarchical. Evaluate skiers from #1 through to #4. Also it's applied through the model of motor skills development (Initiation, Acquisition, Consolidation, Refinement, Creative Variation). BTW none of this is secret squirrel - all available on the CSIA youtube channel.

Scenario #1
A low level intermediate skier who stands too upright, lacks mobility, leans back into the hill, gets knocked off balance by small changes in terrain. Yes, they may be z-turning using the upper body, have no sense of timing and lots of other issues. But the 1st thing to add to this skier in the short 2 hour lesson is improved balance and mobility to keep them upright more of the time. So we can basically stop our evaluation at Tech Ref #1 where this skier is largely in Initiation phase of skill development - doesn't really know what to do. Lesson on stance and getting joints mobile begins...

Scenario #2
A skier making nice rounded, parallel turns in a defined track width, handles changes of terrain readily, controls speed. Skier was fine on a blue pitch but this is a steeper pitch and the skier has a tendency to slide the tails on the exit of turns. The skier is well into Consolidation for that type of turn in terms of skill development. So now we're needing to look more closely at why. Is it a balance issue (Tech Ref #1)? Not leading with the lower body issue (#2)? Not maintaining separation issue (#3) A timing issue (#4)?
So it points us to the right area before we need to drill down to further detail. For example balance may be caused by being too inside or too far forward or ....

Could argue that there is demarcation between points - is absorbing pressure after the fall line Tech Ref #1 "managing forces" or Tech Ref #4 "co-ordinated movement pattern". The student probably doesn't care - just wants help to fix the issue. Probably the L3 teach assessment is the only time it really matters. (So I better figure that out for next time. )

Hopefully Wutangclan will chime in with an experienced perspective.