Developing High Edge Angles Video

[Erik Timmerman]

Well that is definitely the first time I've ever been accused of being in cahoots with HH.

 

[Chris Geib]

Well that is definitely the first time I've ever been accused of being in cahoots with HH.

Guess your secret is out now...

 

[James]

James, it is as you note, it is is taught first and foremost in Europe, while in North America there is an effort on small mountains to focus more on turn initiations relaxing/flexing the old downhill leg and then transitioning. A good and cogent explanation given to me bright skier was that in steep terrain, inexperienced folks shy away from the precipice, so to get the skier to lean downhill, it is easier to ask them to do an "up and forward" move initially i.e. push off of the new downhill leg/old uphill leg. It works especially in steep terrain, and many Europeans do not teach anything else.

His dusty, you posted a lot there so I'll respond for now to stuff addressed to me. In terms of the Klaus video there is the issue of context. Where does he go from there? Lot's of people just see the vid you posted and think it's the final form. Would you not agree that Klaus does not ski like that? Neither does any Austrian Wcup racer or high level skier. There are plenty of people who do that and never get beyond it.

So it's a drill. What's the next one? Every drill can have misinterpretations and unintended effects if not understood or explained. What's being done here is that in order to show high angles on the skis he's way inside with tons of counter. So if you're just looking at the ski angles ok, but what about that body position? Lots of people will take that and go ski in that position. Klaus doesn't ski in that position though and neither do his high level friends. That's the issue.

As to popularity, is that much of an argument with what's popular on tv and youtube these days?

What would be interesting and helpful is your experience working with Klaus and how that relates or doesn't to the video.

Inside ski has been a focus for quite some time. This isn't any big new thing. You say Bob never mentioned it, but his most simple phrase for skiing is "Left tip left to turn left, right tip right to turn right." That is of course the inside ski. While that's rotary based it also covers tipping to little toe since "tip" is a noun for ski tip and also verb. One could just use the verb aspect of tip in that phrase if rotary is off the table.

So that is in the encyclopedia and in his discussion of basic turns to advanced. (Many diagrams on epic). Along with that is the release of the turn - flattening the old outside/ new inside ski. That's the most important. Even in wedge turns he wants to see that ski flattened before/as one is changing direction. Not over powering the old outside/new inside ski with the new outside ski. That's why it's "left tip left to go left" not "push on the right ski to go left" like I was taught and many still are. No pushing on "magic buttons" under the right big toe to turn left. The problem is that does work and is somewhat more natural since it involves applying force now to make something happen.

The other way is releasing the ski holding you in the turn (the outside) , starting the new turn, and allowing forces to build up on the new outside ski as the turn develops. That's much less natural. We don't want to give up the grip on the mountain and "fall" for a second. It seems safer and more direct to push on that outside and over power the inside. It's not actually and leads to dead end habits, difficulty with soft snow, esp powder, and lot's more work.

So, release, release, release. This is why one works with side slips, falling leaf, and Bob's favorite, pivot slips.

Bob's big on doing the same things for lower level turns but at a reduced level due to lower skill level. So similar movements in wedge turn as advanced parallel.

So the Dharon Rhalves pull the outside ski back. I've heard the sale thing relayed from someone who did a Nastar clonc with Aj Kitt. The reason was to increase pressure on the outside ski in the turn. Ok, you need to do that go for it.
Rob Butlers use of it: I haven't looked like it closely but I suspect there's a whole lot of other stuff going on. Pulling back the outside ski increases the force on it. Now if you don't want to turn, you'll just stand there with the uphill coot pulled back some. But you do want to turn, so as you pull the uphill/outside back you relax the downhill and you head in the direction of the turn. So you've released by body going downhill and also relaxing, maybe slightly pushing ahead, the downhill ski.

Somewhat similar to a side slip. If you release the edges and stand in the middle, will the tips go down? The short and technical answer is no. However, it is extremely easy with just a slight body movement to do so. If your intent is to release and point the tips down the body accomplishes this by an almost indistinuishable twist or slight turn of the feet perhaps.
It takes so little that I used to think they did, and we've had leople swear they did then go out and film it and you can see the body movement to initiate tips down hill.

The "up and forward" issue. Well it's clear you didn't directly discuss this with Bob because he's written probably a hundred pages on this with photos and videos on epic. Maybe cgeib has a list of the manor threads. Sure the steep stuff explanation kind of makes sense but It's used and taught on near flat stuff. One has to convince yourself to commit and go downhill on steep terrain. Everyone has their pitch at which point you need to apply self talk. If fear over rides, no amount of "up and forward" talk is going to help because one is desperate to stay back uphill.

I haven't looked at the Austrian vid yet.

So next time you're out on a flat trail. Like say that long return flat trail at Aspen Highlands way lookers right on map. That type of trail without the dropoff. So standing evenly on two feet moving downhill, take say your right foot and tip it towards the little toe. Some people like to think of turning their foot's arch to the sky. Whatever works. So, what happens? If nothing, it is likely you're resisting or tilting to the left while you tip the right foot to lte. Try it again but this time think " I'mgoing to make a slight right turn by just tipping my right foot to the little toe edge" then do it.

You'll find you can initiate a turn by a very slight movement. Can you do the same by tipping a foot to the big toe side? What's the difference? Well play around with it.

You can also initiate a spin with tipping one foot to little toe. It's similar, but the intent is different so the actions are a bit different. Same flat terrain, going downhill. This time slightly pick up one foot , turn it outside a little, and tip it to little toe. The intent here is just to cause some drag. Think of maybe ing the surface. You're not putting weight on it other than to cause some drag. This will start you spinning in that direction. So then put the ski down flat. Stand upright, resist leaning uphill or towards the tips as you're about 180deg. Think vertical centered like a top. Once you get good at it hou can start a spin with very small movement. The key is you'reetting the drag on the ski turn you.

Some like to say the inside foot is the guide ski and the outside foot is the ride ski. The outside still does most of the work, the inside is the brains of the operation.

 

[Chris Geib]

Nice post, James.

Up and forward you say! No, I do not have a list of threads...

 

[Tricia]

Wow, @James, its good to see you posting. Your stuff is insightful.

 

[dustyfog]

1. James - without reservation tipping new inside foot/old outside foot is a good tactic, but no, I do not buy it is fundamental to anything, but is helpful at times without a doubt. Your detailed post is quite constructive, no argument from me.
2. The "up and forward" It was late so my sentences were getting clipped ! So "up and forward" is the most basic ski missive taught to kids, and adults, the world over, and there is a reason why it is so, not because it is the only way to ski but because it helps on many fronts. The remark by the expert who was explaining to me it's prevalence and it was his conjecture, not stated as fact, just he was hypothetizing why, which I found rather logical, it 'most likely' remains fundamental because of the type of terrain one skis on every day, and that shapes the way lessons are imparted and propagate, so instructors on bigger mountains emphasize up and forward more than instructors on rinky-dink hills (Which are still rather scary steep and dangerous in more ways than I can count). I appreciated the logic. And when I have been over my skis on terrain and struggling , what has helped is not relaxing the downhill leg and all that bs, it's very, very simple, instructor yelling "---, get up, get forward", and me repeating that mantra to myself under my breath between gritted teeth and a few rapid bursts of "Hail Mary's" and "Mother of God's", and I am not a christian per se.
3. And I am sorry but I will stick with my experience, those who like to and choose to can retract, and get their bodies down the hill, in steep terrain, but as the steepness increases, they begin to gravitate to "up and forward" as body will not listen to the mind otherwise as alarm bells are going off whether they want them to or not, does not matter what sort of cool customer one is, it's called the 'survival instinct', that movement gets one get up, get forward and move into the fall-line, and the limit of that movement is the jump-turn (calculus 101 speak); and for ordinary mortals but nothing like hearing someone yell "up and forward", when the mind and body are tense, and propensity to lean back, get on the 'backseat' becomes dominant. And "up and forward" does not mean necessarily forward along the skis, it starts there but refinements lead to forward basically meaning 'being down the hill'; but that ONLY comes after skier-student gets over their fear of moving down the hill. It's kind of an universal truth.
4. As one becomes better and better, one plays with different types of turns, the unders and the overs, the tip inside ski, bank, topple into the turn, drive hip down the hill and all that, sure, point is all tricks in a bag only make one better, not worse, BUT, and that is a big BUT, do not forget your "up and forward" , it saves your life when you need it most on a mountain! It is the key method which prevents you from leaning into the hill when every other instinct is making you lean back! Just a lifelong learner's two cents.
5. Epic

   Well that is definitely the first time I've ever been accused of being in cahoots with HH.

   - am sure you are an expert, and have no idea of your association/affiliations other than believe have seen somewhere you are a race coach at Stowe. I just pointed out that the move you emphasize is religion in some quarters, does not mean you are a card-carrying member of said religion, but there are others who are not and on the Epic site, who will argue for 100's of pages, that if one DOES NOT "pull the inside ski back" during transitions and "tip that inside ski" initiating the transition, one does not understand skiing, or is still a neophyte. And many of them are Canadian, but note many Canadian instructors do not push that at all, they talk about, you guessed it "up and forward" ! And all of them including HH have adopted Marcel Hirscher and Ana Feninger as their mascot, but not Ted L, Bode, Hermann, Aksel, or the legions of other power skiers...go figure that one.
6. Just a quick sidebar on how expertise brings with it the ability to make unorthodox moves: For instance, no one teaches a "stivot" to a beginner racer for instance, sure it's a variation of sorts of the most basic moves, the 'side-slip merged with a pivot-slip', sure! But it's something some teach to kids and others who have developed solid gate negotiation skills, gate-turn-timing/terrain-navigation i.e. line selection skills., some even discover it on their own trying to make a gate. Or no beginner or intermediate is going to do a "kick turn" on steep terrain and not fall flat on their face, it takes practice, lots of practice, and experience on skis to do it well on steep slopes, again something not for a beginner but within reach of advanced skiers and experts. I still have managed to fall on my face regularly while practicing - and on steep, i.e. rinky-dink steep terrain, 18-25degrees and it was a sight, clumsy but teetering with legs spread, and then "Timber!"
7. Just point being, mark of expertise according is the ability to do different things well, when needed. And also recognizing, people have their preferred methods, sure, running styles vary, driving styles vary, swimming styles vary, so why not skiing or snow-boarding though fundamentals are fundamentals, not immutable laws of Physics but good guides to better skiing.

Anyway, here are some bigger turns by some of the best ski instructors in the world, representatives of their nation (not the absolute best but some of the best as selected by their peers)- there is a lot of 'hip-dumping' going on ! But I love it, the variations, the styles, the age differences was young turks and goddesses to veteran divas ... you must have seen this clip - all of you, I enjoyed it thoroughly, and LOTS and LOTS of HIGH-G-Forces in the turns, and the hips, beautiful as they might be are getting dumped left and right, forwards and forwards and getting aft too!

Now the king of hip-dumping himself - I love this picture! And he is the Guru of "Up and Forward" - his instruction video emphasizes it, and then again, he is the King of "Whatever it takes" to "Stay on my skis" himself! His hip is dumped ! and with such majestic flourish!

 

[dustyfog]

Your josh foster video stars rob butler.

Oops, late night and ya know all Canadians look the same "in goggles and ski gear"​

 

[Erik Timmerman]

In that Bode photo, his skis are on matching angles. He is balanced entirely on his outside ski.

 

[bbinder]

FWIW, I could never commit to getting 'up and forward' on steep terrain with scaring myself silly and then being unable to commit to the turn. Relaxing my outside ski and tipping feels more natural (and safer) to me on steep terrain, and this seems definitely easier if my inside foot is 'pulled back'. Now, this is my intent, and I have no idea if this is what I am actually doing during these turns, but this is what I fell that I am doing.

BTW, another phrase that I have heard repeatedly over the years from instructors is 'dive into danger' when turning on steep terrain or bumps. Why the hell would I want to do that?

 

[Living Proof]

1. Anyway, here are some bigger turns by some of the best ski instructors in the world, representatives of their nation (not the absolute best but some of the best as selected by their peers)- there is a lot of 'hip-dumping' going on ! But I love it, the variations, the styles, the age differences was young turks and goddesses to veteran divas ... you must have seen this clip - all of you, I enjoyed it thoroughly, and LOTS and LOTS of HIGH-G-Forces in the turns, and the hips, beautiful as they might be are getting dumped left and right, forwards and forwards and getting aft too!

Now the king of hip-dumping himself - I love this picture! And he is the Guru of "Up and Forward" - his instruction video emphasizes it, and then again, he is the King of "Whatever it takes" to "Stay on my skis" himself! His hip is dumped ! and with such majestic flourish!

View attachment 1266

Dustyfog,
I am not an expert on what differentiates "hip dump" from world class racing tuns. I think it refers to pushing your hips away from the skis to become more inside during the arc of a ski. I would argue hip dump is not a purposeful movement performed by elite skilled skiers. Again, my understanding.

This thread had it's beginnings in Bob Barnes thread of the Infinity Move where he described the need for skis to move around the Center of Mass which goes downhill on a constant path. Skiing in accordance with the Infinity Move concept would not produce "hip dump" movements. If your skis go wide enough around the hips, then the hips must lower, it's seen the angulation drawings Bob has in the IM thread. Without a doubt, much of the pro skiing video, Maier's video skiing, and Bode's photo show some excellent skiing where the hip gets very close to the snow, but, that is an outcome of the total technique employed in their turns. I just don't think that it all gets dumped in the "whole lot of hip dumping going on" bin.

But, I can be wrong.

 

[Erik Timmerman]

I think sometimes what causes hip dump is simply developing high edge angles. By that I mean trying to create edge angles that the turn the skier is actually making cannot support. You really shouldn't be going for "high edge angles" you should be going for high enough edge angles.

 

[Monique]

You really shouldn't be going for "high edge angles" you should be going for high enough edge angles.

I feel like the more I read this, the more profound it is.

 

[dustyfog]

Contrasting styles when skiing relaxed for fun and often making big turns: Please commentary invited, as contrasts are constructive

1. Exhibit A: HH actually looks he is having fun, (he actually looks a lot like others I know...) he says he is releasing and pulling back (retracting, he knows better naturally, no argument, mine eyes see a lot of movement, vertical, lateral and in-between, looking good HH)...but regardless, this is the only video of his (in my opinion, NOTE student)-neophyte on YouTube where he really skis without looking all 'squatty', and 'boring', he is flowing, lots of dynamic movement, and he is making skiing look like fun...just cool stuff ... and a bit rare for HH
3. Exhibit B: Some downhillers Free-Skiing:
5. Exhibit C: Now some famous and not so famous instructors relaxing and free-skiing: (NZ, Canada, US, Austria represented)
6. Love this video - emphasizes adapting and modification of technique from high edge angles to softening those angles, adapting to the terrain where the degree and nature of difficulty is quite different - my view is all young skiers should watch this, it really is spectacular and relevant to the discussion here :
8. The Crudology video posted earlier belongs here but it's already up there, that is a masterpiece of ski technique on terrain, high-edge angles and everything else thrown in.

 

[Ron]

@dustyfog great post. I appreciate the time you took to research and put together

 

[Skistaff]

Klaus Mair -- knee driving and hip dumping -- choose your beauty; exhibit B -- exhibits exactly what ? ; exhibits C exhibits two example of good skiing and two intermediate skiers ; Svindal's video will urge how exactly the intermediate skier to create higher edge angles ? ; how is the crudology video related to the topic title ?

 

[HeluvaSkier]

I don't think anyone has posted this video of Klaus... but IMO his skiing deserves a fair shake - despite what you think about the carving video segment. There's some good stuff in here, especially toward the end as the turns tighten up.

 

[Skistaff]

It's not a weak skiing and it's definitely better looking then the first video of him posted above. But still ... in 2015 one must have a little higher criteria when choosing an example to follow.

 

[Gerry Rhoades]

"wont get fooled" what does that mean?

Classic rock song by The Who

 

[François Pugh]

Interesting discussion, although I must say it seems to me that most of the videos could be interpreted as videos to get to a high enough angle for carving turns, I would not call them videos for developing-high-edge angles. They seem like good enough videos to get you started down that road, discounting the videos that were off topic.

Someone please post video on how to develop proper form and ski with high edge angles so that I can increase the g-forces in my skiing and ski with shorter radius carved turns with longer radius skis. Thank you.

A couple of comments come to mind, but first a little about me so you can see where I get my perspective. Much of my early ski education was self taught. I began with the old old-school snow-plow, stem-christie, parallel progression, but went through it quickly enough not to be left with a perma-stem. For many years I was just in it for the thrill of the speed, and my main source of ski instruction was watching FIS WC DH races and listening to the commentators. I spent the first 15 years mostly skiing icy and some icy narrow runs as fast as I could go, but have also spent enough time skiing deep snow to realize the difference in technique required for each. I was not interested in skiing moguls better and didn't care how I looked while skiing. I skied for 15 to 20 years before I ever took a lesson, so had not developed the typical habits I keep hearing about such as an up-move, steering to an edge angle before engaging edges, or unnecessary pivoting of the skis. When I did take lessons, I directed them to forgetabout that speed control bs and refine my carving abilities. Before taking that lesson I really did not know how I was doing what I was doing. Looking back, I'm sure I was banking and skiing too square to the skis and was only fortunate to have lived as long as I did. Taking that first lesson started me down the road to better form, counter (counter action and counter balance according to what I've read of the last while), body position, specific movements and their affect on skis. About 10 or 15 years ago I got the urge to expand my horizons and learn how to properly ski moguls, as well as really refining my turns. I like the way I ski, but I want to ski better.

I encountered PMTS some years ago through epicski and the pmts forums. What the PMTS folks were advocating seemed to make sense to me from a physics point of view, but I was not interested enough to go deeply into it. However, I found the advocated method of skiing pretty much aligned with what I was already doing, except for that focus on the inside foot pullback, which did not seem a big deal to me, but is to PMTS. This summer, being between jobs, I had some time, so I checked out their books from the library and read them over. The books came with videotapes. IMHO, over-all it seems like a good system. With proper modifications the basic approach would work well in all terrain, and IIRC, the last book makes note of the modifications.

I can see how the instruction and focus on pulling back the feet would be helpful instead of the instruction to move your COM forward with respect to your base of support. I can see how pulling back the inside foot helps position the inside hip properly. I've played with the move, pushing it to extreem, and coming back to find a balance. I think it's a good drill, and has improved my skiing, but so have many other things.

What has helped me make tighter turns is proper management of the inside ski/leg so that the outside leg could develop the angles needed for a tight high g turn. What has not helped is booting out on unexpected ice, and having to spend time recuperating from injury.

 

[Living Proof]

It's not a weak skiing and it's definitely better looking then the first video of him posted above. But still ... in 2015 one must have a little higher criteria when choosing an example to follow.

Feel free to define what a "little higher criteria" skiing looks like to you. Since you mentioned 2015, here is this years Project Kitz video. That skiing model would sure work for me.

https://vimeo.com/ondemand/projectkitz

click on watch the video trailer. The entire video is available for purchase on Vimeo for $20. Lots of high edge angle drills, minimal hip dump.