Developing High Edge Angles Video

[Living Proof]

Well, at some point in time, the ice has to be broken and someone will jump in with a thread about a ski technique forum banned on the "other site". The genesis of this thread derives from 2 current threads where high(er) edge angle skiing has been discussed, the door was opened to think in a different manner about the relationship between the path taken by the feet vs the center of mass, Some expressed interest in learning how to make technique changes enabling better angles, one person commented that video is an effective to supplement the verbal discussion. The video below shows one progression, there are others, but, it happens to work for me.

99% of us know the history of rhetoric, pro and con, with respect to PMTS. I'd ask all to listen to the message and not the messenger history when viewing. Out of respect for Bob Barnes, I choose to open a separate thread. In part, I selected this video because it is not demonstrated by Harald, the demonstrator is his partner who avoids all internet discussion, the narration is simple subtitles, the skiing movements are basic and not final form.

In phone conversations with Phil, he stated the wish that that all forms of instruction be discussed in Pugski, and, that we can, indeed, be different. Can a website so conceived exist?

So, have at it, can this, and any video's from other instructors, help the masses to ski like the pro's. And, yes, it is a lifelong process.

 

[Ron]

 

[bbinder]

All right, I'll start. I, too, hope that we can be different about discussing this without getting hung up on semantics, claims of authenticity or originality, and baiting.

I think that the video clarifies the concept of long leg/short leg -- in other words, I can see how and why this concept can help make smooth turns possible, and gives me an idea on how to accomplish this. For me, hearing different approaches to skiing and how various instructors and coaches communicate these is part of what makes skiing fun for me.

 

[Daniel Helin]

Well, at some point in time, the ice has to be broken and someone will jump in with a thread about a ski technique forum banned on the "other site". The genesis of this thread derives from 2 current threads where high(er) edge angle skiing has been discussed, the door was opened to think in a different manner about the relationship between the path taken by the feet vs the center of mass, Some expressed interest in learning how to make technique changes enabling better angles, one person commented that video is an effective to supplement the verbal discussion. The video below shows one progression, there are others, but, it happens to work for me.

99% of us know the history of rhetoric, pro and con, with respect to PMTS. I'd ask all to listen to the message and not the messenger history when viewing. Out of respect for Bob Barnes, I choose to open a separate thread. In part, I selected this video because it is not demonstrated by Harald, the demonstrator is his partner who avoids all internet discussion, the narration is simple subtitles, the skiing movements are basic and not final form.

In phone conversations with Phil, he stated the wish that that all forms of instruction be discussed in Pugski, and, that we can, indeed, be different. Can a website so conceived exist?

So, have at it, can this, and any video's from other instructors, help the masses to ski like the pro's. And, yes, it is a lifelong process.

That stuff works, some of that is on the old USSA learn to ski Cd, I have seen lots of coaches use it successfully. I think way to many instructors struggle with proper demonstrations, and might have a difficult time working that into their teaching. Most ski instructors now are part time, students , teachers, business people ect. They teach for the pass, the parka, camaraderie and training. I'd be willing to bet if a mountain had 200 ski Instructors less that 20 could do that demo.

 

[AmyPJ]

Interestingly, I took a private lesson last winter with an L3 examiner (he might be an L4--former race team and ski school director at Snowbasin.) Anyway, he had me doing this drill but instead of focusing on specifically my inside ski, he had me widen my stance and ski down the run like I was on my horse! It was by far the best run I had skied all day. And I haven't been able to recreate it this season. But I'm going to keep trying. I haven't skied alone yet this season but love to work on this stuff when I am alone and don't have someone waiting on me.

 

[Philpug]

All right, I'll start. I, too, hope that we can be different about discussing this without getting hung up on semantics, claims of authenticity or originality, and baiting.

Yes, this is a test with a short leash. We are adults here. We can have different opinions but respect the others opinion and attacking will not be tolerated. Before it gets to that point, agree to disagree and walk away from the thread. This is a PSIA centric site, other methods all be treated as guests but as with any guest, you need to respect the tone of the house and you will get mutual respect as a person back.

 

[mdf]

It certainly looks good the way it is demoed. (I'm not an instructor). I had never head of exaggerating the stance width to make this easier. I'm wondering, though, how you keep the student from just standing on the inside leg when it's under him like that.

Also, where in the progression is this lesson? Not a never-ever, right?

 

[bud heishman]

Nice railroad track turns. If this is simply a drill, it is awesome. If it is a method to teach beginners, not so much.

I am obviously a PSIA guy, and CSIA guy for that matter and I appreciate much of PMTS's contribution to videos, and books which offer concrete drills and exercises to improve carving. PSIA, at least the top tiers of instructors, recognize the importance of the role of the inside ski and leg in good skiing from the very first turns. We also recognize the mindset of most students who need the maximum control over their chosen path and ability to avoid obstacles and control their speed. With this in mind PSIA offers a multitude of pathways to parallel skiing, one of which is a direct to parallel method.

 

[Living Proof]

It certainly looks good the way it is demoed. (I'm not an instructor). I had never head of exaggerating the stance width to make this easier. I'm wondering, though, how you keep the student from just standing on the inside leg when it's under him like that.

Also, where in the progression is this lesson? Not a never-ever, right?

Correct, not for never-ever's. This specific video was taken from a new series of 5 lessons available on Youtube, and, I think it is the most advanced. The first PMTS lesson is to learn to ski with only the downhill ski weighted so the uphill leg is always kept very light. The initial lessons in the series show the basic movements all performed by the same instructor and with subtitles only. The 5 lessons are a more complete progression, I did use the progression term, but, I was referring to the simple traverses across the hill, then, beginning the complete turn.

Nice railroad track turns. If this is simply a drill, it is awesome. If it is a method to teach beginners, not so much.

I am obviously a PSIA guy, and CSIA guy for that matter and I appreciate much of PMTS's contribution to videos, and books which offer concrete drills and exercises to improve carving. PSIA, at least the top tiers of instructors, recognize the importance of the role of the inside ski and leg in good skiing very first turns. We also recognize the mindset of most students who need the maximum control over their chosen path and ability to avoid obstacles and control their speed. With this in mind PSIA offers a multitude of pathways to parallel skiing, one of which is a direct to parallel method.

Again, it's a drill taught to advanced practitioners, and, excluded is the more final form movement of pulling the light uphill ski up and under the hip . I think there would be violent agreement in the two groups (ha! that would be nice) about the need/ability to control speed via path by as suggested in the 2 threads currently in discussion in this forum. Fully agree that the use of the inside foot and ski plays a major role in modern high edge angle skiing, exactly how to do that seems to be much debated by skiing minds far greater than mine.

Thanks for the mention of the contributions of PMTS. Harald has placed so much good material into the public domain of instruction, and, so few know about it. And, that is about all I will say on that subject.

 

[HeluvaSkier]

This is a VERY high level drill only used for some of the highest level PMTS practitioners. It teaches long-leg-short-leg very well, but probably the most useful aspect is that there is no active extension of the inside leg, ever (in the drill). Because the skier stays low and flexed, and lets the outside leg ski out and away from them, it allows them to stay in balance and get a lot out of the top of the turn. It also pushes their RoM limits.

I've had really good success with this one with very high level students. As with all drills, the extremes usually have to be dialed back (flex and stance width in this case), but the residuals are there and carry over well into carved turns. The momentum carried between turns released using this method is huge.

Here's a clip of me free skiing this same type of drill followed by a carving clip which I suspect most have seen. Hopefully everyone can see how easily one could go from the turns in the drill clip to the turns in the carving clip posted below it.

 

[bud heishman]

Do you have any videos of first time beginner progressions with actual first time beginners? I am interested in seeing how they progress with this methodology?

 

[Ron]

Wow this could be the first constructive thread involving The discussion of ski technique been the two camps

Congrats to all!

 

[Ron]

Interestingly, I took a private lesson last winter with an L3 examiner (he might be an L4--former race team and ski school director at Snowbasin.) Anyway, he had me doing this drill but instead of focusing on specifically my inside ski, he had me widen my stance and ski down the run like I was on my horse! It was by far the best run I had skied all day. And I haven't been able to recreate it this season. But I'm going to keep trying. I haven't skied alone yet this season but love to work on this stuff when I am alone and don't have someone waiting on me.

Same here. It was called the cowboy drill and I do think its effective. Mike can you explain the necessity to do this with legs continuously flexed?

 

[Living Proof]

Do you have any videos of first time beginner progressions with actual first time beginners? I am interested in seeing how they progress with this methodology?

Can't recall ever seeing video of first time beginners, and, not sure there are videos on Youtube that start at that level.

The below video is the closest I could find that shows the very basic "Lift and Tip" movement, referred to as the Phantom Move, that is at the core of all PMTS turns. Any basic Harb progression would get to this movement very quickly. It is from a Youtube series titled: Harb Teach-Yourself, which is the same series as the video posted above. The video 2's are the bookends in terms of technical difficulty.

Teach yourself carving with an early phantom move
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AUAOFTB4OBc

 

[AmyPJ]

Same here. It was called the cowboy drill and I do think its effective. Mike can you explain the necessity to do this with legs continuously flexed?

Interestingly, it wasn't a drill he necessarily planned on having me do, but was trying to use an activity that I AM rather talented at to apply to skiing. It worked!

 

[Blue Streak]

That's the best explanation/illustration of railroad track turns I have ever seen, an excellent drill.

 

[Daniel Helin]

Interestingly, I took a private lesson last winter with an L3 examiner (he might be an L4--former race team and ski school director at Snowbasin.) Anyway, he had me doing this drill but instead of focusing on specifically my inside ski, he had me widen my stance and ski down the run like I was on my horse! It was by far the best run I had skied all day. And I haven't been able to recreate it this season. But I'm going to keep trying. I haven't skied alone yet this season but love to work on this stuff when I am alone and don't have someone waiting on me.

Ron is correct it's the cowboy drill, I like to remind people to widen the stance until it feels like it's going to mess up your skiing. Remember to keep the shins parallel to each other.

 

[Erik Timmerman]

My first thought on this drill (as demoed her) is that it sure doesn't show the skier balanced on his outside ski. Or for that matter on any ski. The contortions ha has to do to achieve his goal put him out of balance in the fore/aft plane too. That said, there is a time and place for everything.

 

[Doug Briggs]

It certainly looks good the way it is demoed. (I'm not an instructor). I had never head of exaggerating the stance width to make this easier. I'm wondering, though, how you keep the student from just standing on the inside leg when it's under him like that.

Also, where in the progression is this lesson? Not a never-ever, right?

One reason the stance is exaggerated in width is that it provides in inrigger (as opposed to an outrigger) to prevent the student from falling on the inside hip. It promotes more weight on the inside ski, but as an exercise it is acceptable if the student learns that as speed builds up and the balance moves more and more to the outside ski's inside edge, the stance can narrow. Given the stances I see of PMTS skiers at A-Basin, I think they learn to balance on the outside ski and don't maintain the hyper-wide stance.

I prefer to have my racers focus on the inside ski without deliberately widening the stance. Inside ski tipping focus to initiate a turn usually results in the skier getting weight off the inside ski because the inside leg flexes leaving the outside ski to become the actual focus of balance. Most people that are too much on their inside ski are not letting the inside ski flex and the inside knee to move to the inside thus it blocks them removing pressure from it.

 

[Ron]

I prefer to have my racers focus on the inside ski without deliberately widening the stance. Inside ski tipping focus to initiate a turn usually results in the skier getting weight off the inside ski because the inside leg flexes leaving the outside ski to become the actual focus of balance. Most people that are too much on their inside ski are not letting the inside ski flex and the inside knee to move to the inside thus it blocks them removing pressure from it.

Doug, @dean_spirito just figured this out with me on my right to left turns. In broken snow I was skiing with too much pressure on the inside ski and not letting the leg flex enough which was causing a bit of an A-frame. I allowed the leg to flex more putting more weight on the downhill leg and it almost instantly cured it. I was able to create better upper and lower separation as well.