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Nice short turns at the end, but that video should be entitled "Hip Dump in Six Easy Steps".
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Developing High Edge Angles Video
- Thread starter Living Proof
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I always love these "learn to carve" videos that feature endlessly wide empty trails with consistent snow.
I remember when I was learning this stuff on the limited-width trails of New England that the trees on the other end of the trail seemed like they were approaching significantly faster than the skis were turning me back up the hill.
I remember when I was learning this stuff on the limited-width trails of New England that the trees on the other end of the trail seemed like they were approaching significantly faster than the skis were turning me back up the hill.
Kevin, I feel the same way about all the how-to-ski videos with soft snow and wide empty trails. I wish we had that here.
With regard to learning to carve, I had similar thoughts as you. Here in NE the snow is hard and the trails are narrow. I had to exercise some major will-power not to pivot the skis while heading for those trees when I was learning, and I suppose you did too. Everyone tells you the skis will turn you, but you just don't know it's true until you let them do their thing without bailing with that habitual pivot.
I remember one significant turn; my skis took me up an embankment at the edge of the trail put there by the groomer; I figured I was going over it and into the trees. But I held on and did not pivot ... and that's the day I learned to carve. The skis turned. How I got myself to hold on I don't know, but I'm glad I did.
Oh, and I was park-n-riding, just like Claus Maier in those videos. I've always thought going through a park-n-ride phase is just fine when you're learning to carve. That phase teaches skiers how their particular skis respond to their movements, how small a radius they can get out of their skis, and it gives them plenty of practice time feeling the skis slicing forwards through the snow. Doing time in park-n-ride mode does not mean one is never going to move beyond that.
With regard to learning to carve, I had similar thoughts as you. Here in NE the snow is hard and the trails are narrow. I had to exercise some major will-power not to pivot the skis while heading for those trees when I was learning, and I suppose you did too. Everyone tells you the skis will turn you, but you just don't know it's true until you let them do their thing without bailing with that habitual pivot.
I remember one significant turn; my skis took me up an embankment at the edge of the trail put there by the groomer; I figured I was going over it and into the trees. But I held on and did not pivot ... and that's the day I learned to carve. The skis turned. How I got myself to hold on I don't know, but I'm glad I did.
Oh, and I was park-n-riding, just like Claus Maier in those videos. I've always thought going through a park-n-ride phase is just fine when you're learning to carve. That phase teaches skiers how their particular skis respond to their movements, how small a radius they can get out of their skis, and it gives them plenty of practice time feeling the skis slicing forwards through the snow. Doing time in park-n-ride mode does not mean one is never going to move beyond that.
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Oops! Posting YouTube's favorite ski instruction clip of one who is not an instructor somewhere stateside; and a few noses bent out of shape clearly about a thoroughly engaging, fun video clip, different approach to the 'usual' stuff stateside online, maybe therein lies the cause of the reaction (not in person though, almost all instructors I know or have known have the same basic approach more or less). This instruction method is actually very common and consistent with instruction in places like Austria, Germany, Switzerland and France. Dude is a friendly, fun communicator, and the looks bloody fantastic, absolutely dynamic, shredding turns at will, (not a boring automaton swishing away left and right, who in their right mind wants to ski like that, no student I assure you though they may not know better), with a unique ability to change/adapt/be versatile (as Mr. Heishman rightly emphasizes). Watch his "uphill skiing" video on YouTube, it really is quite clever and funny.
I am laughing, as my intent was totally different and just on the topic - "how to get the high edge angles" and i just improvised to a sample for getting there in high-G big turns, real fun stuff, through drills which have little resemblance to what someone showed in the beginning. Back to Mr. Heishman's wise words, versatility is the mark of an expert; different ways to achieve those edge angles and especially in high-G turns. I always see a lot of Klaus Mair's big turns in a lot of the expert skiers in Super-G.
This was a post, dear instructors who think they can teach Mr. Mair how to ski, I am a representative customer. When you can ski as well as Klaus, do let the world know, 'cause you will have a following, I assure you, and of course good luck.
Anyway, this clip was shot on Mammoth Mountain, California where I understand Mr. Mair was a legend as an instructor when he was stateside.
And I am going back to the non-ski-school section of the site, clearly a lot of 'religion and politics' does spillover - just paraphrasing the mantra of Mr. Philpug himself, who said leave that at the proverbial door of the saloon.
I am laughing, as my intent was totally different and just on the topic - "how to get the high edge angles" and i just improvised to a sample for getting there in high-G big turns, real fun stuff, through drills which have little resemblance to what someone showed in the beginning. Back to Mr. Heishman's wise words, versatility is the mark of an expert; different ways to achieve those edge angles and especially in high-G turns. I always see a lot of Klaus Mair's big turns in a lot of the expert skiers in Super-G.
This was a post, dear instructors who think they can teach Mr. Mair how to ski, I am a representative customer. When you can ski as well as Klaus, do let the world know, 'cause you will have a following, I assure you, and of course good luck.
Anyway, this clip was shot on Mammoth Mountain, California where I understand Mr. Mair was a legend as an instructor when he was stateside.
And I am going back to the non-ski-school section of the site, clearly a lot of 'religion and politics' does spillover - just paraphrasing the mantra of Mr. Philpug himself, who said leave that at the proverbial door of the saloon.
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The video is excellent.
I am loving this thread. We now have civil and constructive discussions on three different methodologies Keep it coming.
Thread Starter
TS
Epic,
I am not educated in the specific movements that constitute "hip dumping" . What is Claus doing, or not doing, that leads to your judgement? To get high angles, your hips must be inside the outside ski. At the beginning, his body angles are created by moving the feet and knees inside while his hips remain more over his feet.
A noticeable body movement in the drill is how his hips and upper-body face downhill in a position some refer to as counter-acting, or turning the upper body away from the direction of the turn. I frequently read of instruction to remain "square" with feet, knees, hips and shoulders square to the skis Perhaps it is just a example of the "many different ways to ski mantra", if so, good skiing can be a little confusing.
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Well the excessive counter then settling in the imaginary chair inside the turn would lead to what is called hip dumping.
The problem with the vid is people take it and just go with that. What's the next vid, or where he's ending up? If it stops here as likely many do on youtube, you'd end up with hip dumping park and riders that pop up at the end of the turn. I doubtbthat's the intention.
The "up and forward" (towards ski tips) has been talked about endlessly on epic. It is indeed dogma the world over. Still disagree with it.
As to the "square" to the skis, don't know where you're getting that. Standard would be tips, toes, hips would be parallel to each other. In other words, a pole held front of waist would be parallel to one held at ski tips and toes.
The problem with the vid is people take it and just go with that. What's the next vid, or where he's ending up? If it stops here as likely many do on youtube, you'd end up with hip dumping park and riders that pop up at the end of the turn. I doubtbthat's the intention.
The "up and forward" (towards ski tips) has been talked about endlessly on epic. It is indeed dogma the world over. Still disagree with it.
As to the "square" to the skis, don't know where you're getting that. Standard would be tips, toes, hips would be parallel to each other. In other words, a pole held front of waist would be parallel to one held at ski tips and toes.
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No offense to anyone but trying to learn skiing via the web is not a great idea. Too many pieces get left out.
True, but it can be a valuable supplement to in-person instruction.
yeah, I get how it can give you an idea but in reality, each person learns differently and not every person can make the same movements so having an instructor who can relate to you as needed (what a good PSIA instructor does) is key.
No argument on that. But sometimes you get it during the lesson but later discover some of it has slipped away.
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What Klaus demos in the beginning of the video is not what he is doing when he is skiing. He is so far back and inside that he damn near gets thrown out of the bindings when he has to move into the next turn. That is hip-dumping. He is not in balance, but is trying to make big angles for the camera. One "system" would definitely tell him to pull his inside foot back, and they'd be right!
His short turns show that he is clearly an excellent skier, but these demos are not all that good.
His short turns show that he is clearly an excellent skier, but these demos are not all that good.
Thread Starter
TS
I would agree if you are buying skis to improve skills. I will say that technology keeps improving where newer ski's can enhance skills and provide more smiles per turn.
"wont get fooled" what does that mean?
"wont get fooled" what does that mean?
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That's my problem with the Burke Academy Up and Over/Get Over It video drill. Mikaela narrates but she does not ski gs like the people in the drill. Hips forced way forward toward ski tips and holding it to fall line.
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I should'nt be doing this as really this is not my place and as PhilPug/Tricia said this is not Religion, it is Skiing.
Would politely suggest you hear/listen more to your STUDENTS other than from an echo chamber of like-minded acolytes, i.e. each other: I am probably not going to be popular but you know what, where I am from, "bull-sh-t does not walk, it's used as fuel, so lighting a fire" . I justed posted a fun video.
So here goes -
Funny, but no one other than some instructors at Epic and now you, with the appropriate namesake "Epic" from East Coast , and of course the Harald Harb crew say, "pull back the NEW Inside Ski", and interesting you think a guy like Klaus needs that counsel, the dude is an expert, don't you think he deserves that much respect? World Cup Racers ski with the guy, get his counsel, skiers at Mammoth, Zurs, Schruns, and Treble Cone line up to meet this guy, fyi! Video in question, only focus I understood was to make it easy first and exciting second for his audience , the student skier. And boy did we (the student population vote for it with our eyeballs!)
Do you really think a Bode Miller or a Hermann Maier (who Bode has said was "just better" than Bode) need to be told about something they NEVER actually did or thought about unless they deemed it necessary, pull back the inside ski. You ever seen the Canadian Josh Foster or Mr. US-downhill himself, @Daron Rahlves videos, they say and say again and again "pull back the outside ski"! Go figure that dude! These guys are prescribing "INCREASE Inside Ski TIP LEAD" with their prescriptions DIRECTLY contradicting prevailing offered wisdom "pulling back the new inside ski" . To wit:
Mr. Rahlves himself !
and Mr. Josh Foster:
I am nowhere near good enough to be called Advanced so to speak in mine own eyes, a life-long learner I remain, learning non-stop from all instructors, "inside-ski-pull-backers-gang" included , and there are times I have PULLED BACK my INSIDE SKI, and think it's a very helpful tactic. But NO Austrian, Swiss, French, American or Canadian instructor (Upstate NY, Alta, Snowbasin, Whistler-Blackcomb, Banff, Highlands, Snowmass etc) has ever asked me or anyone I know, Pull Back the Inside Ski. Ted Ligety offers many speeches about how to speed up, so does Ms. Shiffrin, Bode has an entire sequence of instruction videos, NONE, and I repeat NONE of them ever say, "pull back the inside ski" or "tip that inside ski first" or "lift that inside ski" wowza, are they are all basically incompetent twerps when it comes to skiing ? or they not knoweth what they doeth ?
Full Disclosure: I would rather ski like Klaus Mair than like anyone from the H crew and I know Mr. Harb and his team are experts, I just do not find their style of skiing visually or aesthetically appealing, they are NOT dynamic, they are static, all they focus on is retraction turns (great turns, come in real handy often of course), and look f--king boring as hell! See below for a lovely Bob Barnes phrase which I believe applies to their style of skiing. But before anyone jumps to conclusions, I recognize what they do is expert level of a certain style, but I do not want their style but does not make them any less expert, indeed they are experts by any standard.
So I have no idea about this 'inside ski pull-back' religion, that video clip is popular for a reason, while all the JF Beaulieu stuff or Paul Lorenz videos while definitely very constructive and helpful to anyone, me included, I like them a lot actually, no question, are not even close to being captivating as this one; I find it kind of juvenile, telling an uber-expert, pull your inside ski back! You really think he does not know, what he needs to do, he is "making it fun", he has parts where he falls, he shows he is 'human' which makes the whole thing more energetic, livens things up, and it's just fun, dude.
There is another trend in the instructor-traveled forums where groupthink prevails, and especially admired is a style of skiing is some bull-sh-te swishy, wishy-washy shortish turns ; which I Bob Barnes nailed perfectly, he called it " LATERAL SHOVING" and did he nail that! So Epic, here is a customer telling you , it's bloody boring ok , and I am sure I do NOT know what I am taking about! You want to watch another video of folks skiing like Klaus , my eyes anyway telling me that they are : here you go: tell all these folks like Dan Egan who is almost always going "up and forward" to "pull that inside ski back" . And most are going "up and forward"!
What you folks call hip-dumping I find comical, guy is making huge High-G-Force turns, and doing them with grace, finesse and raw power, and very high velocity, and you are complaining, he actually shows you how deliberately do the X-move, lean into the turn, fold your knees into the turn, or tip your feet if you prefer, and then angulates to load up on the outside ski; you should be applauding the dude, like the masses and plebian skiers like me, watching in rapt attention on YouTube. He is making more people WANT TO SKI, which means more students, more skier traffic, good for the profession, good for ski instructors, good for kids, good for families, good for the mountain and transport economy, and good for everyone !
..so I leave you with other Austrian Instruction to US Skiers, and notice NO ONE says "pull back the inside ski" and by the way, Bob Barnes never said it anywhere I have seen in his Encyclopedia of skiing, nor did the other dude with the detailed video instruction series, Rick S. Just my observations as a student, humble one at that too..
James, it is as you note, it is is taught first and foremost in Europe, while in North America there is an effort on small mountains to focus more on turn initiations relaxing/flexing the old downhill leg and then transitioning. A good and cogent explanation given to me bright skier was that in steep terrain, inexperienced folks shy away from the precipice, so to get the skier to lean downhill, it is easier to ask them to do an "up and forward" move initially i.e. push off of the new downhill leg/old uphill leg. It works especially in steep terrain, and many Europeans do not teach anything else.
Would politely suggest you hear/listen more to your STUDENTS other than from an echo chamber of like-minded acolytes, i.e. each other: I am probably not going to be popular but you know what, where I am from, "bull-sh-t does not walk, it's used as fuel, so lighting a fire" . I justed posted a fun video.
So here goes -
Funny, but no one other than some instructors at Epic and now you, with the appropriate namesake "Epic" from East Coast , and of course the Harald Harb crew say, "pull back the NEW Inside Ski", and interesting you think a guy like Klaus needs that counsel, the dude is an expert, don't you think he deserves that much respect? World Cup Racers ski with the guy, get his counsel, skiers at Mammoth, Zurs, Schruns, and Treble Cone line up to meet this guy, fyi! Video in question, only focus I understood was to make it easy first and exciting second for his audience , the student skier. And boy did we (the student population vote for it with our eyeballs!)
Do you really think a Bode Miller or a Hermann Maier (who Bode has said was "just better" than Bode) need to be told about something they NEVER actually did or thought about unless they deemed it necessary, pull back the inside ski. You ever seen the Canadian Josh Foster or Mr. US-downhill himself, @Daron Rahlves videos, they say and say again and again "pull back the outside ski"! Go figure that dude! These guys are prescribing "INCREASE Inside Ski TIP LEAD" with their prescriptions DIRECTLY contradicting prevailing offered wisdom "pulling back the new inside ski" . To wit:
Mr. Rahlves himself !
and Mr. Josh Foster:
I am nowhere near good enough to be called Advanced so to speak in mine own eyes, a life-long learner I remain, learning non-stop from all instructors, "inside-ski-pull-backers-gang" included , and there are times I have PULLED BACK my INSIDE SKI, and think it's a very helpful tactic. But NO Austrian, Swiss, French, American or Canadian instructor (Upstate NY, Alta, Snowbasin, Whistler-Blackcomb, Banff, Highlands, Snowmass etc) has ever asked me or anyone I know, Pull Back the Inside Ski. Ted Ligety offers many speeches about how to speed up, so does Ms. Shiffrin, Bode has an entire sequence of instruction videos, NONE, and I repeat NONE of them ever say, "pull back the inside ski" or "tip that inside ski first" or "lift that inside ski" wowza, are they are all basically incompetent twerps when it comes to skiing ? or they not knoweth what they doeth ?
Full Disclosure: I would rather ski like Klaus Mair than like anyone from the H crew and I know Mr. Harb and his team are experts, I just do not find their style of skiing visually or aesthetically appealing, they are NOT dynamic, they are static, all they focus on is retraction turns (great turns, come in real handy often of course), and look f--king boring as hell! See below for a lovely Bob Barnes phrase which I believe applies to their style of skiing. But before anyone jumps to conclusions, I recognize what they do is expert level of a certain style, but I do not want their style but does not make them any less expert, indeed they are experts by any standard.
So I have no idea about this 'inside ski pull-back' religion, that video clip is popular for a reason, while all the JF Beaulieu stuff or Paul Lorenz videos while definitely very constructive and helpful to anyone, me included, I like them a lot actually, no question, are not even close to being captivating as this one; I find it kind of juvenile, telling an uber-expert, pull your inside ski back! You really think he does not know, what he needs to do, he is "making it fun", he has parts where he falls, he shows he is 'human' which makes the whole thing more energetic, livens things up, and it's just fun, dude.
There is another trend in the instructor-traveled forums where groupthink prevails, and especially admired is a style of skiing is some bull-sh-te swishy, wishy-washy shortish turns ; which I Bob Barnes nailed perfectly, he called it " LATERAL SHOVING" and did he nail that! So Epic, here is a customer telling you , it's bloody boring ok , and I am sure I do NOT know what I am taking about! You want to watch another video of folks skiing like Klaus , my eyes anyway telling me that they are : here you go: tell all these folks like Dan Egan who is almost always going "up and forward" to "pull that inside ski back" . And most are going "up and forward"!
What you folks call hip-dumping I find comical, guy is making huge High-G-Force turns, and doing them with grace, finesse and raw power, and very high velocity, and you are complaining, he actually shows you how deliberately do the X-move, lean into the turn, fold your knees into the turn, or tip your feet if you prefer, and then angulates to load up on the outside ski; you should be applauding the dude, like the masses and plebian skiers like me, watching in rapt attention on YouTube. He is making more people WANT TO SKI, which means more students, more skier traffic, good for the profession, good for ski instructors, good for kids, good for families, good for the mountain and transport economy, and good for everyone !
..so I leave you with other Austrian Instruction to US Skiers, and notice NO ONE says "pull back the inside ski" and by the way, Bob Barnes never said it anywhere I have seen in his Encyclopedia of skiing, nor did the other dude with the detailed video instruction series, Rick S. Just my observations as a student, humble one at that too..
James, it is as you note, it is is taught first and foremost in Europe, while in North America there is an effort on small mountains to focus more on turn initiations relaxing/flexing the old downhill leg and then transitioning. A good and cogent explanation given to me bright skier was that in steep terrain, inexperienced folks shy away from the precipice, so to get the skier to lean downhill, it is easier to ask them to do an "up and forward" move initially i.e. push off of the new downhill leg/old uphill leg. It works especially in steep terrain, and many Europeans do not teach anything else.
Your josh foster video stars rob butler.
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