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Developing High Edge Angles Video

dustyfog

Putting on skis
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Klaus Mair -- knee driving and hip dumping -- choose your beauty; exhibit B -- exhibits exactly what ? ; exhibits C exhibits two example of good skiing and two intermediate skiers ; Svindal's video will urge how exactly the intermediate skier to create higher edge angles ? ; how is the crudology video related to the topic title ?

It's not a weak skiing and it's definitely better looking then the first video of him posted above. But still ... in 2015 one must have a little higher criteria when choosing an example to follow.

"Different edges for different wedges", SkiStaff, you think it's low-level skiing :eek::eek:, I laughed, "two intermediate skiers", do you know them ? That was pretty sharp there 'skistaff', you must be an 'expert' of some repute. fair enough, "Different sticks for different tricks". Not that Jack and Jane Public's view are important by any means and they have spoken softly.

Now back to the main show: Wonder how one considers this demo - ignoring the skier involved - just the technique on the bigger turns , short turns, most approaches/techniques have some convergence: And especially from MINUTE MARKER: 4'46" the bigger turns . This is an "ahem" racer coaching :eek:gcool, and so clearly has his own distinct signature style somewhat different from most other skiers but good contrast and Mr. Pugh, he is teaching :):

Interesting discussion, although I must say it seems to me that most of the videos could be interpreted as videos to get to a high enough angle for carving turns, I would not call them videos for developing-high-edge angles. They seem like good enough videos to get you started down that road, discounting the videos that were off topic.

Someone please post video on how to develop proper form and ski with high edge angles so that I can increase the g-forces in my skiing and ski with shorter radius carved turns with longer radius skis. Thank you.

A couple of comments come to mind, but first a little about me so you can see where I get my perspective. Much of my early ski education was self taught. I began with the old old-school snow-plow, stem-christie, parallel progression, but went through it quickly enough not to be left with a perma-stem. For many years I was just in it for the thrill of the speed, and my main source of ski instruction was watching FIS WC DH races and listening to the commentators. I spent the first 15 years mostly skiing icy and some icy narrow runs as fast as I could go, but have also spent enough time skiing deep snow to realize the difference in technique required for each. I was not interested in skiing moguls better and didn't care how I looked while skiing. I skied for 15 to 20 years before I ever took a lesson, so had not developed the typical habits I keep hearing about such as an up-move, steering to an edge angle before engaging edges, or unnecessary pivoting of the skis. When I did take lessons, I directed them to forgetabout that speed control bs and refine my carving abilities. Before taking that lesson I really did not know how I was doing what I was doing. Looking back, I'm sure I was banking and skiing too square to the skis and was only fortunate to have lived as long as I did. Taking that first lesson started me down the road to better form, counter (counter action and counter balance according to what I've read of the last while), body position, specific movements and their affect on skis. About 10 or 15 years ago I got the urge to expand my horizons and learn how to properly ski moguls, as well as really refining my turns. I like the way I ski, but I want to ski better.

I encountered PMTS some years ago through epicski and the pmts forums. What the PMTS folks were advocating seemed to make sense to me from a physics point of view, but I was not interested enough to go deeply into it. However, I found the advocated method of skiing pretty much aligned with what I was already doing, except for that focus on the inside foot pullback, which did not seem a big deal to me, but is to PMTS. This summer, being between jobs, I had some time, so I checked out their books from the library and read them over. The books came with videotapes. IMHO, over-all it seems like a good system. With proper modifications the basic approach would work well in all terrain, and IIRC, the last book makes note of the modifications.

I can see how the instruction and focus on pulling back the feet would be helpful instead of the instruction to move your COM forward with respect to your base of support. I can see how pulling back the inside foot helps position the inside hip properly. I've played with the move, pushing it to extreem, and coming back to find a balance. I think it's a good drill, and has improved my skiing, but so have many other things.

What has helped me make tighter turns is proper management of the inside ski/leg so that the outside leg could develop the angles needed for a tight high g turn. What has not helped is booting out on unexpected ice, and having to spend time recuperating from injury.

I don't know about you Mr. Pugh, but folks have already said clearly Live Lessons are the best learning mechanism and I suspect you concur, and there is no question about that in my humble mind. Instructors the world over have been a pleasure to ski with, learn from.(and a special thanks to all those who skied with a little boy since he was 3 years old as they fostered a ever-lasting love and passion for skiing.)

I was mildly surprised you found nothing really educational, but that's ok, everyone is different in how they transmit, receive and interpret information, audible, visual and literal. I personally thought almost every video posted has many a drill/lesson in it. They just vary in their intended audience, like the original HHarb video is intended for beginners pretty much, Klaus Mair's best-viewed clip is for beginners to advanced intermediates, and then the others are a demonstration of free-skiing, adaptation of technique to terrain (Crudology, Aksel Svindahl) and so on, and for those the audience is everybody, beginners, intermediates, advanced skiers and experts. All are pretty useful in their own right to varying degrees, just some are preferable to others.

The Project Kitz clip is a particular style of skiing popular with a certain class of skiers, mostly in North America and to me, it's a rather nice, well-directed, elegant clip, and the skiing looks 'to me' a lot like the Harald Harb style, with of course, signature personalized variations, naturally, well produced. I thought the entire video is directed to instructors in North America really and perhaps one or two other locales, not really Joe Public like yours truly, but others may have different views 'course. I direct your attention here, for a telling comment on that particular style of skiing, delivered clinically by a practitioner of a different school : http://www.epicski.com/t/142644/ana...ound-here-real-diff-yes-no-maybe#post_1915387

One question for anyone, in the Project Kitz clip and many others, why is there such a focus on short turns, which are kind of painful on the eyes,not the most difficult to execute, just requires serious stamina, and a strong back, and even stronger knees to continue to repeat that motion, but is'nt it the big long ones, where things get seriously hairy, especially in terrain, when skiers hit warp speed, then it's an exercise, in mind-control, body control and agility, no? Taking the g-, riding that g-, is'nt that the 'high' , since when did these short turns become du jour (other than they are life-savers in steep terrain)?(Crudology has folks really letting the g-forces build up and that terrain is the real deal, no bs there, many of them really let the radius of their turns grow, loved it!) Just a ski-novice's views, and glad to read and learn. And exercise choice "and question everything" ! (Someone says that all the time :D)
 
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HeluvaSkier

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@dustyfog
The Project Kitz video is actually two Aussies and a Canadian skiing in Europe and the target audience is any English-speaking skier or coach. The idea behind the installments (and there will be more) is to showcase the best skiers from many different systems (next installments may see Austrians, Japanese, Koreans, etc.). There has been a lot of interest generated among various country demo teams for the project.

As for the focus on short turns... the type that are demonstrated in project Kitz are some of the most challenging to master. That style of turn demonstrates the mastery of a number of movements and skills that most skiers could only dream of possessing. It is also a very versatile turn as variations of it can be used on any skis, anywhere on the mountain. I've been working on these types of turns for a few seasons now, and trust me when I say they are much more difficult than they appear. If you don't believe me, grab a camera and give a buddy a few beers to film you doing your best copy of those turns... You'll quickly understand what I mean... and if you nail them on your first try, I'll see if I can get you an honorary place in the next Project Kitz installment.
 

James

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One question for anyone, in the Project Kitz clip and many others, why is there such a focus on short turns, which are kind of painful on the eyes
Dusty, Turkish toilet comes to mind.
As to why short turns, who knows. More per minute to look at, somewhat closer to what people do at times. But those short turns also require more rapid movements. I wouldn't say they're easier necessarily. Also, these are demos of a repetitive and consistent nature so that skews things a bit.

I miss Sebastien Michel. His skiing had a free elegance and lightness in it that we're not seeing.

I've always liked this clip of Genevieve Simard, just an average wcup skier from Canada. Very simple direct style. Maybe some of it is not every single turn is a retraction turn.
 

Superbman

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1. I bought access to and enjoy the project Kitz video. To ski like that is a full-time dedicated pro skier's pursuit, a young man pro skier at that.

It's worthy, though I think I lack the fitness, dedication to fitness, and gumby like flexibility to even begin to ski like those guys…For me, it's basically a different style of ski porn (it's soft, playboy porn of the ski video world: The girls are prettier, but less extreme).

2. Is the Herminantor himself skiing in the above herman maier ski school video? Just curious. The Instructor free skiing looked great as did the 'finished turns' in the last minute of video.

3. Klaus Mair can ski, like really friggin' well.
 

dustyfog

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@dustyfog
The Project Kitz video is actually two Aussies and a Canadian skiing in Europe and the target audience is any English-speaking skier or coach. The idea behind the installments (and there will be more) is to showcase the best skiers from many different systems (next installments may see Austrians, Japanese, Koreans, etc.). There has been a lot of interest generated among various country demo teams for the project.

As for the focus on short turns... the type that are demonstrated in project Kitz are some of the most challenging to master. That style of turn demonstrates the mastery of a number of movements and skills that most skiers could only dream of possessing. It is also a very versatile turn as variations of it can be used on any skis, anywhere on the mountain. I've been working on these types of turns for a few seasons now, and trust me when I say they are much more difficult than they appear. If you don't believe me, grab a camera and give a buddy a few beers to film you doing your best copy of those turns... You'll quickly understand what I mean... and if you nail them on your first try, I'll see if I can get you an honorary place in the next Project Kitz installment.

HS: It's surely technically difficult, sure but to explain further, preamble to wit "not the most difficult to execute, just requires serious stamina, and a strong back, and even stronger knees to continue to repeat that motion" . Therefore explaining further to my eyes, it's the bigger turns where the speed builds, the forces rise, and the panic level in the brain begins to flash yellow and then red "too damn fast", and to finish that turn, with grace, and roll into the new one, faster, better...is'nt that what really brings on the adrenaline rush, the endorphin high (When it's done and one has not crashed and burned or ended up off a ledge, in a net, or worse in a tree :eek: ! Those short turns are superb, and come in handy in couloirs, or steep terrain , of course. But as I noted different strokes for different folks. Your demo video early in this thread, looked like serious hard work, without a doubt. Good buildup for slalom training too , cannot hurt, only help.
As for Project Kitz, appreciate the explanation of the genesis of the joint venture, it's a very good idea, showcase folks from different geographies, schools, styles, great idea, like it. I do stand by my original impression, 'by instructors, for instructors' not exactly Joe and Jane Jong friendly ;) but that is probably by design, I obviously do not know.
Oh, before I forget, my skiing, my own skis rebel against my bowed legs, they are an affront to skis ! So getting them over like that would require "breaking them in the shins" and "straightening them out" and that is I kid you not, a direct paraphrase of at least two expert friends' counsel.

Dusty, Turkish toilet comes to mind.
As to why short turns, who knows. More per minute to look at, somewhat closer to what people do at times. But those short turns also require more rapid movements. I wouldn't say they're easier necessarily. Also, these are demos of a repetitive and consistent nature so that skews things a bit.

I miss Sebastien Michel. His skiing had a free elegance and lightness in it that we're not seeing.

I've always liked this clip of Genevieve Simard, just an average wcup skier from Canada. Very simple direct style. Maybe some of it is not every single turn is a retraction turn.

James - laughing, more than the Turks, it's an Indian toilet my man, and Ms, Genevieve is smooth as silk, you sure she is racing ;), makes it look like a walk in the park, grace on blades. Although stuffing Turkey's current maniac-in-chief down..oh well, for another time and place :roflmao:

1. I bought access to and enjoy the project Kitz video. To ski like that is a full-time dedicated pro skier's pursuit, a young man pro skier at that.

It's worthy, though I think I lack the fitness, dedication to fitness, and gumby like flexibility to even begin to ski like those guys…For me, it's basically a different style of ski porn (it's soft, playboy porn of the ski video world: The girls are prettier, but less extreme).

2. Is the Herminantor himself skiing in the above herman maier ski school video? Just curious. The Instructor free skiing looked great as did the 'finished turns' in the last minute of video.

3. Klaus Mair can ski, like really friggin' well.

That is the Herminator, just another 'Maier' with an "e" !:D
 

Skistaff

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Feel free to define what a "little higher criteria" skiing looks like to you. Since you mentioned 2015, here is this years Project Kitz video. That skiing model would sure work for me.

https://vimeo.com/ondemand/projectkitz

click on watch the video trailer. The entire video is available for purchase on Vimeo for $20. Lots of high edge angle drills, minimal hip dump.

Thanks for inviting me to the party. You want me to define what good skiing looks like to me. Hmm, this turns out to be risky business here. Let's imagine that your vision of good skiing happens to be aligned by mere chance with someone's teachings and it won't be too long before you get labeled : religious fanatic, crew member , card holder etc. Long writings on the subject up here (see last 3 pages) , long writings , short value. I hear John Clendenin defines the skier's flu as starting your turns with a wedge. I define it otherwise: a beginner skier with shaking knees on top of a steep heel , miraculously becomes an expert in front of a keyboard and uploads videos from all over the net ,from all over the world to tell he knows what good skiing is (but he does not know anything). And even Marcel Hirscher plays against " Svindahl " in this game.Speaking of Hirscher, here is what I do: I watch his run on slo mo and I read his skiing and I read it from A to Z and it's easy to read ,it's a liquid skiing.Then I take all the 'propitiatory terms' that often explain Hirscher's skiing and I replace them with my words and ..... oh miracle , it still remains a good skiing. About the first Maier's video -- I don't buy from someone who pushes his knees sideways to make big angles , come on ,this is ridiculous. And the guy doesn't even ski as he teaches. About the Project Kitz -- thumbs up, this is what the skiing is all about.From there you master the whole mountain.(and not the other way)
 

dustyfog

Putting on skis
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Thanks for inviting me to the party. You want me to define what good skiing looks like to me. Hmm, this turns out to be risky business here. Let's imagine that your vision of good skiing happens to be aligned by mere chance with someone's teachings and it won't be too long before you get labeled : religious fanatic, crew member , card holder etc. Long writings on the subject up here (see last 3 pages) , long writings , short value. I hear John Clendenin defines the skier's flu as starting your turns with a wedge. I define it otherwise: a beginner skier with shaking knees on top of a steep heel , miraculously becomes an expert in front of a keyboard and uploads videos from all over the net ,from all over the world to tell he knows what good skiing is (but he does not know anything). And even Marcel Hirscher plays against " Svindahl " in this game.Speaking of Hirscher, here is what I do: I watch his run on slo mo and I read his skiing and I read it from A to Z and it's easy to read ,it's a liquid skiing.Then I take all the 'propitiatory terms' that often explain Hirscher's skiing and I replace them with my words and ..... oh miracle , it still remains a good skiing. About the first Maier's video -- I don't buy from someone who pushes his knees sideways to make big angles , come on ,this is ridiculous. And the guy doesn't even ski as he teaches. About the Project Kitz -- thumbs up, this is what the skiing is all about.From there you master the whole mountain.(and not the other way)

To quote the omnipresent Sgt Schultz : "I know nothing". And those knees definitely 'shake' often, fear is the key after all.

If one can watch and THEN ski like Marcel Hirscher, that is definitely a first, ski-maestro, why bother posting, that guru should be on the FIS circuit right now :wave:- they need some 'good men' or 'women' (not to be sexist as am not aware of your gender). About 'examples to follow' and 'aim higher', it's a free country, pick your poison, no restrictions, as far this novice is concerned.

This humble contribution from the 'know-nothings' was for mortals on skis, not 'legends in their own mind:roflmao:. Now as this novice is done with the Hirscher-kings, above my pay grade :rolleyes:, but quite humorous :yahoo:, hence the humble-pie observation :eek:gcool ! Perhaps all those in the videos above except good old Marcel of course, should line up on particular expert's ski-step to take lessons, should be a wonder-of-the-world moment :D . And really , cross my heart, genu-wine respect! :duck:
 
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Skistaff

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To quote the omnipresent Sgt Schultz : "I know nothing". And those knees definitely 'shake' often, fear is the key after all.

If one can watch and THEN ski like Marcel Hirscher, that is definitely a first, ski-maestro, why bother posting, that guru should be on the FIS circuit right now :wave:- they need some 'good men' or 'women' (not to be sexist as am not aware of your gender). About 'examples to follow' and 'aim higher', it's a free country, pick your poison, no restrictions, as far this novice is concerned.

This humble contribution from the 'know-nothings' was for mortals on skis, not 'legends in their own mind:roflmao:. Now as this novice is done with the Hirscher-kings, above my pay grade :rolleyes:, but quite humorous :yahoo:, hence the humble-pie observation :eek:gcool ! Perhaps all those in the videos above except good old Marcel of course, should line up on particular expert's ski-step to take lessons, should be a wonder-of-the-world moment :D . And really , cross my heart, genu-wine respect! :duck:

You must be very lucky writer to still find readers ( like yours truly ) to your longish ditiramba, since they hide no precious knowledge. What they hide for sure is Mr. Joe's opinion and as we know the opinions are like a - holes, everyone has it and all of them stink. And really , why should one take them serious (the ditiramba not the a-holes), as you wisely underlined yourself Joe Public's view is unimportant by any means and he has spoken softly. So long buddy expert ... and BTW, take the H off the Aksel's name. He may get angry next time you call him for help.
 

dustyfog

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You must be very lucky writer to still find readers ( like yours truly ) to your longish ditiramba, since they hide no precious knowledge. What they hide for sure is Mr. Joe's opinion and as we know the opinions are like a - holes, everyone has it and all of them stink. And really , why should one take them serious (the ditiramba not the a-holes), as you wisely underlined yourself Joe Public's view is unimportant by any means and he has spoken softly. So long buddy expert ... and BTW, take the H off the Aksel's name. He may get angry next time you call him for help.

Against my better judgment as responding to your direct somewhat personal diatribe feels almost like a violation of this site's raison d'etre, but ignorance needs an education, and Joe Public is the final arbiter in the marketplace of ideas so beating one's head against proverbial wall, we proceed :wave:: First, this is funny :roflmao: . That word "ditiramba" (origins are in the Balkans, it's not English) and a few minor grammatical flourishes seem strangely deja-vuesque, familiar style. And then there was this whole "I watch Marcel H and I see it, I ski it" bull-sh-t, that was a clear giveaway, as Mr. H I think was AWOL until you showed up! I could be wrong of course but if so, you have a twin residing elsewhere who excelled at.. ... metaphorically speaking of course.

Let's put it this way, if you don't like what you read, DON'T and but at least show you are literate enough to read the SignPost at the "entrance" , and don't let it "hit you on the way out", since it says very clearly "This is SKIING, not RELIGION" , clearly you barreled through without the benefit of 'comprehension' , it's ok, good schools in North America, Corinthian College hunting for experts, students and all that. In three posts it seems you have a bee up your ditiramb-esque bonnet :daffy: , trip out dude. Do you know the origins of the saying about opinions and exit cavities ? I don't think so, if you did, because you'd understand why it's pathetic in a free exchange of ideas world. I'd understand if you were kidding, but you are not, that's disturbing.
And the "H" by the way is there on purpose, and it's irrelevant.
Final word to the wise: The only opinion that matters is Joe Public in a free society but how would you know that, capisce :crash:
When you learn how to teach skiing , dial back in, someone will listen, Joe Public assures you. Until then this 'lucky" novice says Adios - you know the rest :D(or perhaps not:roflmao:)
 

Monique

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Oh, dear.
 

Philpug

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OK...it is starting to get a bit personal and before it gets further than it has already gotten I would suggest that a few walk away from the thread (at least for a bit) and agree that there might be different opinions that do not match with their own and that is OK because as it was mentioned this is just skiing and nothing more.
 

Skistaff

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Against my better judgment as responding to your direct somewhat personal diatribe feels almost like a violation of this site's raison d'etre, but ignorance needs an education, and Joe Public is the final arbiter in the marketplace of ideas so beating one's head against proverbial wall, we proceed :wave:: First, this is funny :roflmao: . That word "ditiramba" (origins are in the Balkans, it's not English) and a few minor grammatical flourishes seem strangely deja-vuesque, familiar style. And then there was this whole "I watch Marcel H and I see it, I ski it" bull-sh-t, that was a clear giveaway, as Mr. H I think was AWOL until you showed up! I could be wrong of course but if so, you have a twin residing elsewhere who excelled at.. ... metaphorically speaking of course.

Let's put it this way, if you don't like what you read, DON'T and but at least show you are literate enough to read the SignPost at the "entrance" , and don't let it "hit you on the way out", since it says very clearly "This is SKIING, not RELIGION" , clearly you barreled through without the benefit of 'comprehension' , it's ok, good schools in North America, Corinthian College hunting for experts, students and all that. In three posts it seems you have a bee up your ditiramb-esque bonnet :daffy: , trip out dude. Do you know the origins of the saying about opinions and exit cavities ? I don't think so, if you did, because you'd understand why it's pathetic in a free exchange of ideas world. I'd understand if you were kidding, but you are not, that's disturbing.
And the "H" by the way is there on purpose, and it's irrelevant.
Final word to the wise: The only opinion that matters is Joe Public in a free society but how would you know that, capisce :crash:
When you learn how to teach skiing , dial back in, someone will listen, Joe Public assures you. Until then this 'lucky" novice says Adios - you know the rest :D(or perhaps not:roflmao:)


A little bit of knowledge is a dangerous thing. No problem smart-writer. You win. :golfclap: ( if anyone still cares) Take a deep breath now . Cheers ! :beercheer:

p.s. .... and don't worry , nobody says you don't know how to spell names , it was just a joke...
 

newfydog

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I have not waded through this thread, but holy sh*t....
upload_2015-12-22_21-43-51.png
 

Philpug

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I think this thread is the leader in the clubhouse for Avatar's used....:beercheer: D'oh:doh:
 
Thread Starter
TS
Living Proof

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Funny, this thread is mentioned on Epic ski as a reason why intelligent PMTS discussions should be allowed there. Some, there, lament how this forum is too polite, and, that they enjoy a little snarkiness.

I've been watching the full Project Kitz video, there is some good stuff on how to get higher angles. For sure, this aging body will never get into those positions in this lifetime, but, I can dream. I can just visualize @HelluvaSkier shaking his head at my skiing. I've enjoyed the exchanges, thanks to all for posting.
 

Monique

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I have not waded through this thread, but holy sh*t.... View attachment 1762

My husband was just telling me how nobody gets edge angles > 15 degrees. (Of course, he wasn't actually talking about racing ...) ... I'll have to send this to him :)
 

mdf

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Look at the snow spray. Is his pole touching the snow? Another good reason for slalom hand protectors! Smooth running surface.
 

Monique

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