All Mountain Skis That Are Great In Moguls

[Philpug]

Glad I picked that video then. Supporting local talent!
There’s always a scene in every Mogul Boot Camp video where the kids are going over tight spaces rollers going straight and learning absorption but I couldn’t find any when I was looking and instead found that one.

Agree on finding out the proper binding ramp delta/boot forward lean for you as balance is so crucial in the bumps.

There are tons of race/racy skis available with waists in the 60's and a lot of more "all mountain" designs in the 70's.

Most of the mogul specific skis are in the low to mid 60mm range with a good amount being based from a GS ski mold.

 

[jack97]

There are tons of race/racy skis available with waists in the 60's and a lot of more "all mountain" designs in the 70's.

I was putting out the dimension of the an All Mtn ski in perspective back in the early 2000s. Typically, the dimensions were ~ 105/70/90, not a lot of shape. As for present All Mtn skis, I haven't seen skis that narrow, the tip is ~ 120 mm or greater and waist 80 mm or greater.... the market has gone fat. The wide tips allow for an easier turn initiation on the flats. IMO, aspiring (direct line) bumpers should go narrow at the tips so that they have some slop when they aim their skis onto the upcoming bumps, having wide tips leaves room for little error. In addition, the wide tips can inadvertently "catch" the side of a mogul when the formation is tight. Tough things to overcome when one is new to skiing a direct line.

As for GS shapes, that is the right approach however the skis themselves are too stiff for bumps. Rossignol Mogul skis was a GS skis but with the internal metal taken out.

 

[CS2-6]

Get either the Twister or the Mamba/244

Sounds good. You don't happen to have any used ones you wanna sell me do you...?

The techniques to do this was "mainstream" back when skis had less shape but now only taught in freestyle teams...Hopping during the transition, keeps you center when going into the new turn...Tail Lift with weight on the outside ski, great way to get forward

Thanks for the videos. That makes a lot of sense, and that's a really good idea to practice these on the groomers in-between mogul fields.

Found a video

That was an excellent video and really drove home the sense of bringing your feet back under you at full absorption/compression.

That video was actually done by our on @Bob Barnes and features @Chris Geib and some others.

Is either one of them the guy with the gray sweatshirt and white knees or the guy in all black they showed ripping down a course (they could be the same skier, I wasn't sure). Anyway, he/they are incredibly smooth. Looked great to my eyes.

Head The Caddy

Thanks for the heads up. I'll have to swing by there before the sale is over.

delta

I read about the delta angle in Elling's All-Mountain skier, but I figured I wasn't at the point where these technical details would help much. But, it sounds like I ought to invest in a boot fitting before taking any lessons. Yall don't happen to know any great bootfitters in the Dallas, Fort Worth TX area do you? Maybe Pagosa Springs?

the market has gone fat

This is exactly what I'm finding. If you want skinny waists with minimal sidecut, moguls skis are your only option. If you want medium sized waists with minimal sidecut, park skis are pretty much your only choice. You can get skinny race skis and medium waisted all mountain skis, but like Jack97 said, they're usually too wide at the tips and too stiff for lots of mogul action.

 

[ted]

I watched some of your videos on TGR, it doesn't look like you could get out of the back seat no matter how hard you try.

From what I saw you might try 3/8" heel lifts if you can't get to a good fitter.

Don't underestimate the value of fore aft alignment.

I can't count the times I've ridden a chair with someone who says- "my SO (usually male)
is a great athlete, but can't learn how to ski.

Of all athletic footwear, ski boots can have the most negative effect on balance if they don't match your anatomy.

 

[jack97]

Sounds good. You don't happen to have any used ones you wanna sell me do you...?

Try Forerunner, they have demo mogul skis and i thought they ship them across the US. The web site is down, Killington is ghost town right now but they should be up and running come Sept to Nov.

https://www.pugski.com/threads/psa-demo-mogul-ski.9324/

 

[jack97]

I watched some of your videos on TGR, it doesn't look like you could get out of the back seat no matter how hard you try.

From what I saw you might try 3/8" heel lifts if you can't get to a good fitter.

Don't underestimate the value of fore aft alignment.

I can't count the times I've ridden a chair with someone who says- "my SO (usually male)
is a great athlete, but can't learn how to ski.

Of all athletic footwear, ski boots can have the most negative effect on balance if they don't match your anatomy.

I use heel lifts for purposes of getting more forward, helps when thats the fastest way to start a turn. I would also suggest the OP lose the backpack as well, mess things up with the fore/aft alignment.

 

[CS2-6]

Don't underestimate the value of fore aft alignment

Welp, I certainly did that.

doesn't look like you could get out of the back seat no matter how hard you try...great athlete, but can't learn how to ski...the most negative effect on balance if they don't match your anatomy...try 3/8" heel lifts if you can't get to a good fitter

So, you're saying sometimes it is the tool that's the problem; don't tell the folks on TGR ;-)
But that's incredibly encouraging, makes me feel like I still can do something to improve rather than just "ski moar you stoopid n00b"

try 3/8" heel lifts if you can't get to a good fitter

Thank you! That's really helpful. I'm going to try and find a good bootfitter, but I assume a bad bootfitter is worse than no bootfitter. So if I can't, at least your advice will give me a place to start trying from on my own.

Forerunner

Thanks, man. I'll keep an eye on them.

heel lifts

Yeah I'm definitely going to have to try those. Now that I'm thinking about it, I actually use 1/4" heal lifts when squatting to get deeper without rounding my lower back, so I might be a good candidate to use them when skiing too.

 

[CS2-6]

After taking in all yalls input, doing a little research, and achieving a level of overthinking that astonished even myself, I'm looking for a ski that is:

-Mid-waist width (78-92mm)
-Mild tip (or tip & tail) rocker
-Cambered underfoot
-Long (>19m) turning radius
-Soft to moderate flex in the shovel. This is the most important parameter, but as you all know, is the most vague and variable to measure.

Short list:
"NEW" SKIS
-Armada ARV86 - maybe a little too much sidecut
-Atomic Punx Five - might be too soft
-Atomic Punx Seven - might be too stiff; they have very straight tips and tails (like mogul skis) with a more moderate sidecut underfoot; the idea being that this makes the ski less hooky
-Head Caddy - 20% tip rocker/camber/10% tail rocker is a neat design
-Volkl Bash 89 - flex? If it's the new Kink, it might be too soft
-Volkl Kanjo - flex?

OLD
-Armada Infamous
-Blizzard Bushwacker (some older models are soft enough, others too stiff)
-K2 Sight - no idea what the flex is like
-Rossignol Scratch - 2016 and later have too much rocker I think
-Volkl Ledge - flex?

I'm posting this for two reasons:
1) So if any of yall know of a good deal on any of these you might clue a clueless forum buddy in
2) If any of yall have any experience regarding the flex on these skis, you might share your thoughts and review

 

[AngryAnalyst]

I know you got a lot of crap on the TGR forum, but you also got one of the most helpful posts on mogul technique I've ever seen (I think the fifth page?). If you haven't, might want to take a look and think about which of the three methods he recommends you want to pursue.

For others - this is the link, midway down the page: https://www.tetongravity.com/forums...-Mountain-Skis-That-Are-Great-In-Moguls/page5

His method #2 benefits from a pretty different ski than method #3.

 

[mister moose]

Updated:

--You are currently renting skis and are looking to buy your first ski, a one-ski quiver.
--You're 5' 11", 165 lbs, 34 years old
--You get 6 to 10 days on the snow per year
--You've been skiing yearly since you were 3 (31 years), for 6 days per year on average (at least 3, at most 28 in a season)
--You were born, raised, and reside in Texas

Using 6-10 days a year, I'm going with an average of 8 days. So since High School, you have skied 16 years, 8 days a year, which is 128 days. 128 days renting skis at $40 dollars a day (using today's dollars) is $5,120 on ski rentals. If you spent $35/day it's $4,480. 128 days on rental skis and you haven't narrowed the field sufficiently to pull the trigger on skis to simply ski on, get to know well, and develop technique to where mogul specific skis will benefit you. And in those 128 days, you've had the astounding total of... one lesson. Sheesh. Buy some skis, any damn skis, and learn to turn them 1) faster, 2) centered, 3) independently, 4) faster. Stop the renting bleeding. That is 87% of what you need. Look at this a different way: Tell me which skis in your lists of lists will keep you from learning what I wrote in red.




The answer: none of them.

It's starting to seem like the ratio of talking to doing is getting lopsided, or at least headed in that direction.

Don't get me wrong at all, lots of reading, video watching and kibitzing is part of making the most of the off season and advancing your academic knowledge of the sport. That only goes so far. It's starting to feel like you're shopping for a speed suit when you score in the silver at NASTAR. It's time on snow with directed coaching that you need. And you need to learn how to change your execution of the basics, yet you fight against that in "But he's just giving me the textbook lesson". And you're different, ......how?

That's why I asked why you don't move to Colorado, which really meant why don't you allocate more of your time, resources and dedication to spending a significantly greater amount of time in Colorado if you truly want to get better in moguls? (I know it's expensive in both career and dollars, (and maybe relationships) but that's what all of us have done.)

Wax on, wax off. Lose the attitude, find a good mentor, put in the time. There are no shortcuts for what you seek, but there are longer roads.

 

[cosmoliu]

Tough love.

 

[rustypouch]

Using 6-10 days a year, I'm going with an average of 8 days. So since High School, you have skied 16 years, 8 days a year, which is 128 days. 128 days renting skis at $40 dollars a day (using today's dollars) is $5,120 on ski rentals. If you spent $35/day it's $4,480. 128 days on rental skis and you haven't narrowed the field sufficiently to pull the trigger on skis to simply ski on, get to know well, and develop technique to where mogul specific skis will benefit you. And in those 128 days, you've had the astounding total of... one lesson. Sheesh. Buy some skis, any damn skis, and learn to turn them 1) faster, 2) centered, 3) independently, 4) faster. Stop the renting bleeding. That is 87% of what you need. Look at this a different way: Tell me which skis in your lists of lists will keep you from learning what I wrote in red.




The answer: none of them.

It's starting to seem like the ratio of talking to doing is getting lopsided, or at least headed in that direction.

Don't get me wrong at all, lots of reading, video watching and kibitzing is part of making the most of the off season and advancing your academic knowledge of the sport. That only goes so far. It's starting to feel like you're shopping for a speed suit when you score in the silver at NASTAR. It's time on snow with directed coaching that you need. And you need to learn how to change your execution of the basics, yet you fight against that in "But he's just giving me the textbook lesson". And you're different, ......how?

That's why I asked why you don't move to Colorado, which really meant why don't you allocate more of your time, resources and dedication to spending a significantly greater amount of time in Colorado if you truly want to get better in moguls? (I know it's expensive in both career and dollars, (and maybe relationships) but that's what all of us have done.)

Wax on, wax off. Lose the attitude, find a good mentor, put in the time. There are no shortcuts for what you seek, but there are longer roads.

Exactly. OP, you're over thinking this. Just get on something and ski.

 

[mister moose]

2 more things to think about:

1) If you wait to demo and buy this season, mid season after a few demos, you will be paying full tilt boogie retail. Buy now if you can, last year's stock or demos. Or decent used if you can find it.

2) You are trying to arrive at the perfect ski for you when you haven't even owned a pair of skis yet. More to the point, you need to significantly change your approach/stance to skiing as well. So if you are successful in doing that, you will have demo'd your "perfect ski"" on your old technique, and your new found technique will not be optimized on what you dreamt was your perfect ski. So stop obsessing.

You can buy a ski this fall ("any damn all-mountain ski"), now, ski it a season or two, and sell it. You'll be out very little money since you'll only add 12-16 days wear in 2 years. In the second year you can scout for what ski should be next in your progression, and sell the first pair. And make no mistake, it will be a progression. You have until just after Columbus Day to find a deal, then last year's stock runs out and prices will be 2019 stock.

 

[CS2-6]

TGR

Yeah, but to their credit, they're generally pretty darn funny.

one of the most helpful posts on mogul technique I've ever seen

Oh, no doubt. In fact, I've benefited from an honestly remarkable amount of really insightful mogul advice from so many folks on these boards; notably Greg_K here at PugSki and over at Newschoolers,d galibier_numero_uno's gapic analysis on TGR, doebedoe on the same boards, jack97 and LiquidFeet here on PugSki, bdfreetuna's advice on AlpineZone, SterlingSpikeDancer on TGR, Domeskier's and BenedictGomez's ski length analysis on AlpineZone, the a fore-mentioned ill-advised strategy and follow-up posts on TGR, and especially Mister Moose's eye-opening deconstruction at AlpineZone and advice here on PugSki. Far more than I expected, warranted, or hoped for. Sincerely, thank you all.

And in those 128 days, you've had the astounding total of... one lesson..."But he's just giving me the textbook lesson". And you're different, ......how?

I'm not looking to be defensive, but I've had a number of lessons in those 128 days, but only one "mogul-specific" lesson. And my complaint about the textbook nature of the lesson was that I didn't learn anything new and didn't get much feedback as to what I was doing wrong. I have some understanding of what "good" looks like, and I know that I don't ski like that; so I was hoping a one-on-one lesson would give me some input on how to get from where I am to "good", or at least to "better." Which, ironically, is exactly what you helped with in your AlpineZone posts. Regardless, I have every intention of taking more lessons.

It's time on snow with directed coaching that you need.

That's exactly what I plan to do, but there hasn't been much opportunity for it between my original post and this one...

Stop the renting bleeding

While I'd argue that your example is fairly exaggerated, the meaning of it is right on.

Lose the attitude

If at any point I sounded anything other than grateful and appreciative, then I'm ashamed. Yall have given me a ton of help and I honestly appreciate it.

why you don't move to Colorado

For the exact reasons you listed. I truly love skiing, and moguls are my absolute favorite part of the sport, but skiing will never be more important to me than family. That's not an indicator of some lack of interest skiing, because nothing is as important to me as family. I don't see how that precludes me from getting at least a little bit better on the slopes though. Skiing for me is a (passionate) hobby, but not a way of life, and if that means I have no business posting on these boards or asking for advice, then I'll excuse myself.

any damn skis...It's starting to seem like the ratio of talking to doing is getting lopsided, or at least headed in that direction...You are trying to arrive at the perfect ski...So stop obsessing.

I swear, I'm not trying to find "the perfect ski." There's been enough wisdom shared on these forums for me to understand no such thing exists, especially for where my ability is. But, with my limited amount of time on the snow, I just wanted to utilize as much of yalls experience as possible so that I can get a ski that won't be fighting me the whole time. For example, if I had decided to buy a ski 6 years ago, it probably would've been the much lauded Volkl Kendo. I've learned enough to understand that ski is way too stiff for what I like to ski. But I'm not debating the spirit of your argument, any of the skis in this thread would probably suit me fine to one degree or another, I was just asking for a little more information on them, that's all.

paying full tilt boogie retail. Buy now if you can, last year's stock or demos. Or decent used if you can find it..."any damn all-mountain ski"), now, ski it a season or two, and sell it

That's a wise strategy that goes against my natural inclination of buying good stuff that lasts and keep it forever. But you're certainly right, better to ski on a set for a couple seasons and then trade up (and avoid full tilt boogie).

just after Columbus Day to find a deal

Thank you, that's exactly what I plan to do.

 

[silverback]

Two thoughts:
First, you date your skis and you marry your boots. Second, if you don't move to a ski resort this year you're just going to be older when you finally do.

 

[wutangclan]

The advice to "move to ski town xyz" is appallingly unhelpful. If it were feasible and a priority for someone, they'd do it (as some do). Y'all should accept that for most other people, it's not, and thus tailor your advice with these constraints in mind.

 

[silverback]

The advice to "move to ski town xyz" is appallingly unhelpful. If it were feasible and a priority for someone, they'd do it (as some do). Y'all should accept that for most other people, it's not, and thus tailor your advice with these constraints in mind.

Appallingly?

 

[markojp]

'Appallingly' seems to be about the right descriptor. The OP was very thoughtful and clear about his priorities regarding relocation. Family being more important than skiing seems quite reasonable.

 

[silverback]

Definition of appalling
: inspiring horror, dismay, or disgust

really?

We better let Warren Miller know.

It this were a music forum and I said I was passionate about piano and asked how to improve my playing and said my mom wouldn't let me get a piano so I only played on a borrowed one at church 10 times a year, I don't think it would be "appalling" if someone suggested I might need to have regular access to a piano to practice if I really wanted to play better.

 

[wutangclan]

If the word "appallingly" is all that y'all object to, then fine, I retract that (too late to edit) ... but I'll interpret the lack of comment on the rest of what I wrote as grudging acceptance.