What's so bad about leaning back anyways?

[Bill Talbot]

Now I do remember back in the day....................

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No offense to Wayne but I remember the 70's a little different!

 

[Slemers]

You forgot skier 3, who is balanced smack dead neutral and smokes both of them. This issue really is most get too far forward (or too far back), so getting on the tails (or slightly on the tails) gets you hovering near that neutral point. The second part of speed is flat or at least on the same edge on both skis (either left or right).

You know you have it right when your skis get squirrelly (start to wander) you are both neutral and flat which equals fastest.

My Dynastar Speedzone 12's exhibit this behaviour if I'm headed straight down the hill. I have to make at least a gentle turn to stop the wandering/oscillation of the ski, sometimes the left ski, sometimes the right. I had read previously this ski had a tendency to do this at speed

 

[Steve]

If I'm on a long flat and don't want to have to skate, I look for the swimmy skis too. Roll my knees out, get them as flat as possible, no edges, and I coast a lot further. Edging slows you down.

 

[François Pugh]

My Dynastar Speedzone 12's exhibit this behaviour if I'm headed straight down the hill. I have to make at least a gentle turn to stop the wandering/oscillation of the ski, sometimes the left ski, sometimes the right. I had read previously this ski had a tendency to do this at speed

Up to a certain point, you can alternate edges, beyond that wobbling is faster, albeit less comfy and more risky. However, unless you're racing your bud to the chair, there's no real point in gaining an extra few miles per hour.

 

[Slemers]

On the road when this happens it usually means you screwed up the exit of the turn and then only God can save you from a highside. And I'd take 5 lowside crashes over one highside any day of the week.

Up to a certain point, you can alternate edges, beyond that wobbling is faster, albeit less comfy and more risky. However, unless your racing your bud to the chair, there's no real point in gaining an extra few miles per hour.

Yes, I find the wobbling disconcerting so I just make a gentle turn to settle them down. Then I'm good to go. They only seem to do this on the flats prior to the lift maze. I've been working on a neutral stance the last couple days out,I guess I'm getting there. Couldn't tell you what speed it occurs at.

 

[James]

Skiing takes place in the 4th dimension... you're willfully ignoring centripetal/centrifugal force for the sake of argument. It's also why instruction threads are so unnecessarily contentious.

You’re going to have to explain that one to me.

 

[Chris V.]

To me, "leaning back" implies levering the backs of the boot cuffs. That's quite different from "getting back," which could mean being heel side heavy while maintaining dorsiflexion.

 

[justplanesteve]

No offense to Wayne but I remember the 70's a little different!

View attachment 127924

I remember that ad & wondered if she was a real skier at the time? IOW, as opposed to a posed model/cut'n paste (70's version of photoshop)
Seems like it would make a wonderful 50th anniversary retrospective interview.

smt

 

[Bolder]

The easiest way to haul the skis around for a back-seat skier, since the skis are barely bending if at all, is to rotate the upper body first and lean to the side. Once those are embedded habits, skill building stops. The body's useful ROM is fully occupied and there's no option for variation. There are other ways of making turns from the back seat, but this movement pattern is the most prevalent where I ski in New England.

Skiing aft while turning and tilting the upper body works in a limited way, but it severely limits the skier's ability to make short radius turns with grip. That rotating and leaning movement pattern typically keeps a skier on green and blue groomers. If green and blue groomers are all a skier wants to ski, staying in the back seat is fine.

Otherwise, those skiers need to get out of the back seat so they can put to use the more expensive front half of their ski. New terrain and more conditions will become their playground once they generate their turns from the hip joint down, while using the upper body for directing and controlling balance.

Hee hee. But true. I thought this post sums up the issues with being in the backseat, which I definitely have. I would add only that skiing from the back seat is probably just a natural reflex -- when we sense danger the impulse is to retreat a bit, i.e., if you see an icy patch or mogul etc your body says, whoa, back off, especially if you're tired.

As a peripheral note ... falling from the tails is less painful than going over the handlebars when skiing aggressively down the fall line -- you just skid on your butt and lift up the skis so you don't tweak a knee or hip, whereas once you're leading with your head all bets are off...

 

[LiquidFeet]

Agree - leaning back uphill, both when the skis are pointing downhill and when they are pointing across the hill, is a response to perceived danger. I have found it more effective in short one-hour lessons to teach a skier not to lean uphill while doing sideslips than to effectively teach that same skier not to lean against the back of their cuffs in a "whoah Nellie" stance. Terrain choice is the key.

I once had a lesson with a lady who was having trouble keeping up with her friends so she bought a one-hour lesson. Finding one thing to focus on is about all one can do in a one-hour private lesson. This skier had a late pole-plant, a stem turn entry, was on her tails, leaning in to edge her skis, and using upper body rotation to motor her turns. What to address in an hour was my challenge.

I decided that the back seat issue was so strong that it would prevent any progress on the other issues. And there was a long line of whales on the side of a blue trail beneath the lift. We looked at those whales and had a little talk about them. As we came down the trail I surprised her by taking her to the top of the first one. We took in the view, took deep breaths, and discussed what to do next. I suggested we focus on skiing the succession of whales before us, very slowly, as a way to have an adventure. She was game.

I explained that sideslipping would be the slowest and easiest way down that whale. Sideslip down, slowly rotate skis towards next summit and coast to the top. I demonstrated a sideslip part of the way down, and sidestepped back up to her. She tried, but her skis would not budge. She was leaning uphill forcefully, frozen in fear of tumbling down into the abyss head first. She really feared "going over the handlebars." We had a lot of whales to ski, so this was a try and try again progression. We kept at it, with a little bit more slippage happening on each whale's backside. She had no issues rotating the skis to coast back up to the next summit, and got all the way up successfully after having to side-step up only the first one.

By the end she was successfully sideslipping down each whale, morphing that slip into a turn, and making it back up to the summit of the next whale to a nice clean stop. She marveled at the fact that not leaning uphill gave her more control and security. We were able to discuss not leaning back over the tails as her next goal. She conceptually understood that the two are related, but we had run out of time so it would have to wait.

What I remember most vividly was her dramatic mental switch from being afraid of getting her body downhill of her feet, to realizing that this was the way to get more control and security. She was ecstatic about her breakthrough and eager to explain it to her friends. I hope she led them up and over the whales that afternoon.

 

[Slemers]

Hee hee. But true. I thought this post sums up the issues with being in the backseat, which I definitely have. I would add only that skiing from the back seat is probably just a natural reflex -- when we sense danger the impulse is to retreat a bit, i.e., if you see an icy patch or mogul etc your body says, whoa, back off, especially if you're tired.

As a peripheral note ... falling from the tails is less painful than going over the handlebars when skiing aggressively down the fall line -- you just skid on your butt and lift up the skis so you don't tweak a knee or hip, whereas once you're leading with your head all bets are off...

Unless of course you over rotate and ski switch on your left ski. Then you lever into the crud and ring your bell Had that happen recently (with a helmet). A painful learning experience for me.

 

[Wilhelmson]

Every sport or activity is different but imagine trying to go for a hike or play basketball or soccer leaning so far back in your shoes that your toes are jammed against the front. Its unnatural and we wouldn't do it since we learned how to stand at a very early age.

Skiing is similar but most have neither the benefit of taking our lumps as toddlers nor proficient adult examples to copy. Maybe playing a sport in zero gravity would be similarly awkward.

 

[WynnDuffy]

Obligatory Donny Pelletier

 

[green26]

It’s entirely the right move, especially if you have an urge to test out the latest ACL surgical procedures.

Isn't backseat the first position for the phantom foot ACL tear technique?