What's so bad about leaning back anyways?

[geepers]

No trolling, was out on the slope all day, no time to check on this thread which seemed to take off unexpectedly (much like skis being driven from the back might I might add...)

Was just genuinely curious to see other people’s thoughts on the matter.

I think it’s just more indicative of the CSIA methodology which says that you can only ever work on one thing at a time, therefore there must be an answer, even if the people writing the material can’t seem to agree on what it is...

Haven't yet seen or heard much about hierarchical approach in the new CSIA system. It was certainly there in the old Tech Refs - supposedly start at #1 and move onwards from there, with loopback for increased competency.

Applying what I understand of the new CSIA system supposedly derived from objective thinking and objective facts (*)...

• The primary objectives of skiing are:
  • Speed control
  • Direction control
  • Staying upright (balancing)
• The tool we use is the ski and we can only do 3 things to it:
  • Twist it
  • Tip it
  • Manage the force on it (between skis, along it, and size of...)
• We get the ski to do what we want it to do with our bodies
  • The legs manipulate the skis as they are closely attached to them
  • The upper body has most of the mass so it provides the ballast to supply force/pressure

So leaning too far back reduces our ability to stay upright (when bumped), restricts our management of forces on the skis (we can only pressure the tails), makes it difficult to twist the skis except down the fall line (since the tails are engaged with the snow), compromises tipping (except by further risk to staying upright). These all affect our ability to control speed and direction.

The old TR #1 "Use of all joints helps maintain balance providing the ability to manage forces acting on the ski and the skier" seems pretty good place to start.

* - Used to think all facts were objective. But now I understand better and that there are, allegedly, such things as "alternative" facts.

 

[Mike B]

Haven't yet seen or heard much about hierarchical approach in the new CSIA system. It was certainly there in the old Tech Refs - supposedly start at #1 and move onwards from there, with loopback for increased competency.

Applying what I understand of the new CSIA system supposedly derived from objective thinking and objective facts (*)...

• The primary objectives of skiing are:
  • Speed control
  • Direction control
  • Staying upright (balancing)
• The tool we use is the ski and we can only do 3 things to it:
  • Twist it
  • Tip it
  • Manage the force on it (between skis, along it, and size of...)
• We get the ski to do what we want it to do with our bodies
  • The legs manipulate the skis as they are closely attached to them
  • The upper body has most of the mass so it provides the ballast to supply force/pressure

So leaning too far back reduces our ability to stay upright (when bumped), restricts our management of forces on the skis (we can only pressure the tails), makes it difficult to twist the skis except down the fall line (since the tails are engaged with the snow), compromises tipping (except by further risk to staying upright). These all affect our ability to control speed and direction.

The old TR #1 "Use of all joints helps maintain balance providing the ability to manage forces acting on the ski and the skier" seems pretty good place to start.

* - Used to think all facts were objective. But now I understand better and that there are, allegedly, such things as "alternative" facts.

Such as leaning forward all the time. What about being centered? Try that, always.

 

[Noodler]

Such as leaning forward all the time. What about being centered? Try that, always.

When a skier thinks they need to get forward, they're only thinking of the outcome instead of the correct inputs that actually get a skier forward. Many skiers think that breaking at the waist and lurching their shoulders forward is being forward on skis, but that's not the case. So the problem for many skiers stuck in the backseat is that they really have no concept of the inputs required to fix their problem and yet they're still trying to "get forward" without understanding how.

 

[Guy in Shorts]

Big smile gets painted on my face on those mornings were testing out the new snow I find that pressuring my heels results in the tails sinking. Full game on without limits when the backseat option is in the toolbox.

 

[LiquidFeet]

Big smile gets painted on my face on those mornings were testing out the new snow I find that pressuring my heels results in the tails sinking. Full game on without limits when the backseat option is in the toolbox.

You are cultivating bumps, yes?

 

[Sanity]

One of the fun things about the skis school locker room is the "I'm smarter than you" contests that seem to arise fairly frequently.

The topic that piqued my interest was the implications of leaning too far back.

One veteran instructor suggested that the biggest issue was that a skier leaning too far back would find that their skis would hook up in the tails and begin to launch them faster and faster down the hill.

Another instructor postulated that the biggest issue was that by leaning back, it makes it much harder to steer the skis because it's harder to edge one's skis to change direction if your ski is coming off the snow.

I can see the arguments for both, but I'm curious what the braintrust here thinks is the most important reason to not lean back.

I'm sure you don't care what I think, but here it is anyway There is no perfect optimum fore-aft position for all situations which is one reason there will be lots of debate, because everyone has had a different valid experience. The best position depends on the equipment setup, personal physiology, type of skiing, and terrain. For example, with some types of skis, boot setup, and body type, if you pressure too much on the shins, the tails will wash out messing up the carve. In other setups, every bit of pressure you can bring to bear on the shins will be necessary to get the full performance out of the ski. This is particularly true for stiff, long radius skis, with upright, stiff boots, for a light person with small calves that's trying to get a sharper turn than the turning radius of the ski. Sharper turns might not be uncommon for a GS ski in the gates or a mogul ski in the bumps. On some setups, the tails will wash out when too far forward, because the tails have no pressure, but similarly if there's not enough pressure on the tips then the tip won't bite making it very difficult to bend the ski to turn sharply. Also, with more forward pressure it's easier to pivot, because of leverage, which is often needed when perfect carving isn't the objective. Another issue is that forward pressure can slow you down. This is because the ski can turn more sharply, tails can wash out, and because the tip can bite and skid bleeding off speed depending on the technique and surface conditions.

So, IMO, both instructors were at least partially right in their arguments. Certainly leaning back makes it harder to steer the skis and will also cause you to speed up. But, I don't think speeding up is entirely because the tails will hook up. Certainly, if you're trying to wash out your tails to control speed you may not be able to do it leaning back, but I also think there's less speed control because the turns won't be as sharp and/or less skidding of the ski tip under pressure. Also, the turn won't be as sharp not just because it's harder to steer by pivoting, but also because the tip doesn't bite as well, and the ski doesn't bend as much.

 

[Noodler]

I'm really surprised that any skier would question whether leaning back leads to less control over the skis and an increase in speed. This becomes pretty obvious for skiers during their 1st season on skis.

2 skiers in a tuck on a cat track. Skier 1 pressures the ski tips while lightening the tails. Skier 2 pressures the tails while lightening the ski tips (leans back). Skier 2 will smoke Skier 1 down that cat track every time. This was discussed in a previous thread and the group discussion conclusion was that removing the pressure from the tips allows a ski to more easily "plane" over irregularities in the slope, thus picking up more speed. Pressure on the tips results in the ski creating a more backward force at it encounters the irregularities, thus slowing down. This can also be observed in mogul skiing. A key element of speed control in mogul skiing is keeping your tips down in contact with the snow and especially having the tips absorb the hit on the front side of the mogul. The regular contact of the front of the skis into the front of the moguls helps keep your speed in check. Lean back and watch what happens...

 

[Mike B]

When a skier thinks they need to get forward, they're only thinking of the outcome instead of the correct inputs that actually get a skier forward. Many skiers think that breaking at the waist and lurching their shoulders forward is being forward on skis, but that's not the case. So the problem for many skiers stuck in the backseat is that they really have no concept of the inputs required to fix their problem and yet they're still trying to "get forward" without understanding how.

That's because their instructors probably can't find center and shout to get forward all day. Sound familiar?

 

[Steve]

Pressuring the tips of the skis is only for a short time at the beginning of the turn. Being too far forward later in the turn causes the tails to wash out.

 

[mister moose]

Someone explain to me the benefits of leaning in any direction, let alone rearwards.

[Ski talk disclaimer: Leaning as an unbalanced, uncentered imposed force or pressure on the ski, rather than a centered (meaning force aligned) or in anticipation of a new aligned force]

Now if you visit the back seat, and do not reside there, you might be discovering versatility.

 

[LiquidFeet]

One of the fun things about the skis school locker room is the "I'm smarter than you" contests that seem to arise fairly frequently.

The topic that piqued my interest was the implications of leaning too far back.

One veteran instructor suggested that the biggest issue was that a skier leaning too far back would find that their skis would hook up in the tails and begin to launch them faster and faster down the hill.

Another instructor postulated that the biggest issue was that by leaning back, it makes it much harder to steer the skis because it's harder to edge one's skis to change direction if your ski is coming off the snow.

I can see the arguments for both, but I'm curious what the braintrust here thinks is the most important reason to not lean back.

Clearly there are situations when experts weight the tails of the skis on purpose. Some people have pointed these situations out upthread.

Is there a way of using the discussion of these performance choices in a way that helps answer the OP's question about "leaning too far back"? I mean this seriously.

 

[Steve]

And note that you can weight the tails of the skis and still have your COM forward.

 

[Tex]

Not an instructor, but if you are not standing on the center of your ski you lose control. Back on your ski, no preasure on center of ski to ark it and turn it, you are doomed. Watch the racers on TV, when they blow out of their line it is normally they fall back on their ski. Need to stand on your ski like you are barefooted.

 

[martyg]

See my post re free Ron Lemaster webinar. You can email in with questions. Go the the best Source of the Truth.

 

[Noodler]

See my post re free Ron Lemaster webinar. You can email in with questions. Go the the best Source of the Truth.

That's highly debatable.

 

[James]

Hips not over feet:

Paul Lorenz

Just sayin’...

Stand by for qualifiers, “buts”, “you know...”

 

[Noodler]

Hips not over feet:

View attachment 127154
Paul Lorenz

Just sayin’...

Stand by for qualifiers, “buts”, “you know...”

What point of reference are you using here? Give me a shot from the side view and I think we're going to have a very different conversation.

 

[James]

What point of reference are you using here? Give me a shot from the side view and I think we're going to have a very different conversation.

Gravity. Plumb bob.
Qualifiers like frame of reference, which plane, are never used. Why?
It’s a pretty imprecise definition, but ‘above’ is the closest.

Definition of OVER

across a barrier or intervening space; especially : across the goal line in football; forward beyond an edge or brink and often down; across the brim… See the full definition

www.merriam-webster.com

 

[Tony Storaro]

Hips not over feet:

View attachment 127154
Paul Lorenz

Just sayin’...

Stand by for qualifiers, “buts”, “you know...”

The game of forces here is much more complex. In a sense, he is still centered on the ski.

P.S. You forgot to include "in a sense" in the qualifiers..

P.P.S. Try to do the same while not moving or while moving slowly into a turn.

 

[LiquidFeet]

It's in the disagreements that we find the fun, huh?