What's so bad about leaning back anyways?

[geepers]

Well, @James does have a point. Took me a while to understand that "over" BoS did not actually mean "vertically on top of" BoS.

That's highly debatable.

What the skis are doing on the snow - short conversation.

How we get the skis to do that on the snow - long conversation -> animated discussion -> heated argument -> tribal warfare.

 

[James]

The game of forces here is much more complex. In a sense, he is still centered on the ski.

The statement is “hips over feet.” Simple.
Is it true?
In what plane are the hips over the feet?
Sagital? Is it really plural ‘hips’?

 

[Tony Storaro]

In what plane are the hips over the feet?

Too bad we dont have pictures from the side, that'd make the things a lot easier.

At what time are his hips over his feet?

I'd go out on a limb here and say: all the time. In a sense.

 

[mister moose]

Gravity. Plumb bob.
Qualifiers like frame of reference, which plane, are never used. Why?
It’s a pretty imprecise definition, but ‘above’ is the closest.

Okay... I'm going to put the plumb bob on the belt buckle on the skier in your photo right at the instant that photo was taken, and lets not get bogged down on keeping the plumb bob clear of clothing ....

Now what? Where will the plumb bob lie?

Well, @James does have a point. Took me a while to understand that "over" BoS did not actually mean "vertically on top of" BoS.

Yes, I think so. What does "vertically" mean? (Bear with me, I'm stretching the usage of a common concept) In line with gravity? Or in line with the sum of forces acting on it, and we're just used to a certain sum? This has fore/aft implications as well.

 

[geepers]

Okay... I'm going to put the plumb bob on the belt buckle on the skier in your photo right at the instant that photo was taken, and lets not get bogged down on keeping the plumb bob clear of clothing ....

Now what? Where will the plumb bob lie?



Yes, I think so. What does "vertically" mean? (Bear with me, I'm stretching the usage of a common concept) In line with gravity? Or in line with the sum of forces acting on it, and we're just used to a certain sum? This has fore/aft implications as well.

"Perceived gravity" (i.e. the combination of gravity and centripetal force vectors) did not sell well in this forum. However IMHO it's a useful concept.

"Over" without qualification can be misleading.

Practically any word used in describing ski technique may have issues and problems. "Separation" (of upper and lower body) - probably not best taken literally. May not be the best word to use with some-one involved in a relationship breakup.

 

[markojp]

The statement is “hips over feet.” Simple.
Is it true?
In what plane are the hips over the feet?
Sagital? Is it really plural ‘hips’?
View attachment 127167

Skiing takes place in the 4th dimension... you're willfully ignoring centripetal/centrifugal force for the sake of argument. It's also why instruction threads are so unnecessarily contentious.

 

[Chris V.]

Okay... I'm going to put the plumb bob on the belt buckle on the skier in your photo right at the instant that photo was taken, and lets not get bogged down on keeping the plumb bob clear of clothing ....

Now what? Where will the plumb bob lie?

I don't know. Is the skier moving, or not moving?

 

[Tim Hodgson]

At my level of understanding, I really find the Tom Gellie definitions of Frontside Heavy, Neutral, and Backside Heavy very useful.

Backside Heavy is not Backseat because in Backside Heavy the ankles are still closed.

In Backseat, the ankles are open, which many would consider leaning back.

James' photo is really cool. It appears to me that the skier is making the turn with his inside ski, since the outside ski is cambered and appears to have skidded out from any arc it previously had.

 

[Tony Storaro]

"Perceived gravity" (i.e. the combination of gravity and centripetal force vectors) did not sell well in this forum.

That does not make it any less real tho.

At a certain point during a carved or even not so carved turn, gravity loses its appeal and the body goes after much sexier G-forces and centrifugal forces and suchlike which at that moment take precedence.

 

[oldschoolskier]

I'm really surprised that any skier would question whether leaning back leads to less control over the skis and an increase in speed. This becomes pretty obvious for skiers during their 1st season on skis.

2 skiers in a tuck on a cat track. Skier 1 pressures the ski tips while lightening the tails. Skier 2 pressures the tails while lightening the ski tips (leans back). Skier 2 will smoke Skier 1 down that cat track every time. This was discussed in a previous thread and the group discussion conclusion was that removing the pressure from the tips allows a ski to more easily "plane" over irregularities in the slope, thus picking up more speed. Pressure on the tips results in the ski creating a more backward force at it encounters the irregularities, thus slowing down. This can also be observed in mogul skiing. A key element of speed control in mogul skiing is keeping your tips down in contact with the snow and especially having the tips absorb the hit on the front side of the mogul. The regular contact of the front of the skis into the front of the moguls helps keep your speed in check. Lean back and watch what happens...

You forgot skier 3, who is balanced smack dead neutral and smokes both of them. This issue really is most get too far forward (or too far back), so getting on the tails (or slightly on the tails) gets you hovering near that neutral point. The second part of speed is flat or at least on the same edge on both skis (either left or right).

You know you have it right when your skis get squirrelly (start to wander) you are both neutral and flat which equals fastest.

 

[oldschoolskier]

I was taught old school that all carved turns (or turns period) started with the tips. Where the tips went everything else followed.

I have never had tail washout with weighting the tips, ever! The tails followed. If you are having issues with tail washout you are unweighting you skis starting at the neutral point.

I find too much weight behind neutral causes tip chatter which causes lift and ends in tail washout.

Too much time on old straight skis. Modern shaped skis because of more sidecut are generally more sensitive to improper balance.

The l an forward issue is a problem cause by standing on slope, our inner ear and visual indicators tell us we are too far forward, where in fact we are too far back. On the slope in motion, neutral is actual an un-natural forward position. So the instructor yelling forward means get neutral.

 

[oldschoolskier]

Hips not over feet:

View attachment 127154
Paul Lorenz

Just sayin’...

Stand by for qualifiers, “buts”, “you know...”

No qualifier, buts or you know.

Body limitations pure and simple to allow motion. There is more than one way to weight forward.

By the way, weight is neutral (if not slightly forward), not back as evidenced by the inside ski shape, tip is extremely weighted and aggressively engaged. For those that don’t understand how, it is upper body rotation driving the forward weighting (left shoulder coming forward to counter act to limitations of the lower body).

Most force vector diagrams used do not use rotation and a translation of it into forces as it a true 3d dynamic and difficult to see diagram.

Just say’n.

 

[Tony Storaro]

You know you have it right when your skis get squirrelly (start to wander) you are both neutral and flat which equals fastest.

So, I have been doing it right?

I hate that feeling-when I tuck into aero position, put the ski flat and they get like this. It is scary. I normally immediately tip them on edge unless I am in the middle of a hard ice patch where I am not sure the edges will hold so I try to fly through it as fast as possible on flat ski and only then I start turning again.

 

[François Pugh]

I was taught old school that all carved turns (or turns period) started with the tips. Where the tips went everything else followed.

I have never had tail washout with weighting the tips, ever! The tails followed. If you are having issues with tail washout you are unweighting you skis starting at the neutral point.

I find too much weight behind neutral causes tip chatter which causes lift and ends in tail washout.

Too much time on old straight skis. Modern shaped skis because of more sidecut are generally more sensitive to improper balance.

The l an forward issue is a problem cause by standing on slope, our inner ear and visual indicators tell us we are too far forward, where in fact we are too far back. On the slope in motion, neutral is actual an un-natural forward position. So the instructor yelling forward means get neutral.

You must have been a natural.
I remember my 2nd ski lesson way back in 1980 something at Jay Peak. The lesson, after an initial ski and discussion where-in I expressed my complete disinterest in learning short radius speed control turns (hey, I could stop from ludicrous speed in black moguls with a hockey stop- a decade or two of practice), we worked on improving my clean carved turns. The instructor noticed that my tips were slipping a bit at initiation, so we worked hard on me getting enough pressure on those tips so they would start a clean cut from the get go. After about an hour or so, I was feeling quite proud to have eliminated this problem. The instructor agreed! Then crushed me by pointing out that my tails had begun to slip. I fixed that too by the end of the lesson.

 

[oldschoolskier]

You must have been a natural.
I remember my 2nd ski lesson way back in 1980 something at Jay Peak. The lesson, after an initial ski and discussion where-in I expressed my complete disinterest in learning short radius speed control turns (hey, I could stop from ludicrous speed in black moguls with a hockey stop- a decade or two of practice), we worked on improving my clean carved turns. The instructor noticed that my tips were slipping a bit at initiation, so we worked hard on me getting enough pressure on those tips so they would start a clean cut from the get go. After about an hour or so, I was feeling quite proud to have eliminated this problem. The instructor agreed! Then crushed me by pointing out that my tails had begun to slip. I fixed that too by the end of the lesson.

Not getting wacked by a ski pole by Dad (old Austrian , no he really didn’t, but did correct me), quickly gets the understanding on being balanced.

Old school methods did have there painful merits, I believe they call it abuse now.

Seriously, a lot of this I figured out how to be faster than my friends when I was the lightest (into my early 20’s, 6ft, 120lbs wet, not an once of fat), skied the least and want to be the best. Watch and read about what the best racers were doing, even if it was called wrong at the time. Fast is fast, there is a reason (reverse engineering 101). Same applied for tuning/waxing all my equipment.

Funny thing, all that I learned back then still applies today.

 

[oldschoolskier]

So, I have been doing it right?

I hate that feeling-when I tuck into aero position, put the ski flat and they get like this. It is scary. I normally immediately tip them on edge unless I am in the middle of a hard ice patch where I am not sure the edges will hold so I try to fly through it as fast as possible on flat ski and only then I start turning again.

Yes, scary feeling though isn’t it? That’s way there are few good glider’s in the flats at the top world cup, that balance between control and speed is ultra fine.

 

[Tony Storaro]

Yes, scary feeling though isn’t it?

Immensely. When the front of your motorcycle starts doing this you know something extremely unpleasant is coming your way. I totally freak out.

 

[François Pugh]

Immensely. When the front of your motorcycle starts doing this you know something extremely unpleasant is coming your way. I totally freak out.

I hate it when that happens.
Note to self: avoid landing 110 mph jumps on 16" front wheel with negative rake and trail. Revving the engine can pick up the front end.

 

[Tony Storaro]

I hate it when that happens.
Note to self: avoid landing 110 mph jumps on 16" front wheel with negative rake and trail. Revving the engine can pick up the front end.

On the road when this happens it usually means you screwed up the exit of the turn and then only God can save you from a highside. And I'd take 5 lowside crashes over one highside any day of the week.

 

[François Pugh]

Or you forgot to slow down after you slowed down for an elevated bridge deck on a back concession road.