What to do with ankles as you ski

[Rod9301]

You cannot flex a boot much by using muscle forces in your ankle.
Flexing a boot takes tongue pressure.
I pay a lot of attention to tongue pressure and relaxing into the boots when skiing.
Other folks have an issue with this so lets discuss.
I'll be back with some data after I get my snow blower mounted and stuff....

Thé easiest way to flex the ankle is by pulling the feet back.

I've always found that to be rather circular reasoning. Without ground reaction force we have to use T. anterior to close the ankle.

We can only use hamstrings to close the ankle when there is ground to provide reaction force in front of the tibia and therefore we can only use hamstring pullback to close the ankle when we can pressure the front of the ski.

The obvious corollary here is that someone with unbuckled alpine boots or in XC boots or on skates who finds themselves back will never regain front/back balance using just the pullback move.

The second obvious corollary here is that we will never be able to use pullback with regular alpine boots with completely rockered skis (ones that describe a true arc in the sagittal plane), unless we can somehow launch ourselves into a tip roll from the backseat.

Not true. Try it.

 

[Rod9301]

Then

Maybe for you this is the easiest way. This isn't the case for everyone.

Personally, I've thought about this method when I'm skiing and it feels awkward and not very effective. When you're skiing, gravity is pulling you down the hill. To pull the feet back is resisting gravity. You're pulling your feet in the opposite direction gravity wants you to go. Therefore I find it a lot easier and more efficient to think about bringing my knees and COM forward and downhill (working with gravity).

We're accomplishing the same thing. But my point being what's "easy" to someone, might not be the most efficient for someone else.

Then why all racers use this method?

 

[Lauren]

Then

Then why all racers use this method?

I don't race so I can't speak for why all (or any) racers would use that method. Maybe it's universally easier if you're racing (i.e. fast speeds, arcing hard turns, and on groomed hard-snow terrain) to use that method.

All I was saying is there are different cues that different people use to get themselves forward and flex their ankles...at least in the recreational world.

 

[oldschoolskier]

What I do with my ankles is not as important as what you suggest for some else to do with their ankles while skiing.

IMHO this is a very complex answer as is it depends on ability and application, so I'll try and answer simply.

For beginner skiers, do not yet have balance and understanding of what a ski does and how one makes that happen. As such boots tend to be softer to allow said movement while limiting transmission to the ski. They are soft intentionally to absorb gross actions.

For the other end of the extreme, boots tend to be extremely stiff (yes there is variation based on application), this is to allow minute movements and actions to be transmitted to the ski immediately.

In short the movement is about transmitting forces to the ski to either initiate an action or to counter balance one. As to how much, well...… where does the skier sit on the scale of ability and equipment used?

 

[Average Joe]

Here’s a good test at home:
Sitting in a chair, with your feet in front and legs flexed at a 90 degree angle, without moving your feet, stand up and notice which muscles are used.
Next try the same while pulling your feet back underneath your COM while standing up.
Much more efficient.
There’s a YouTube video of former USST head coach Phil McNichol describing the importance of the transition. At one point he describes the skis like a ball rolling down the hill, every time you release you’re letting the “ball” (your skis) accelerate faster than your body.

Without a muscular action to counter, you will often be out of balance. The “feet back” muscles are a big part of the chain.

 

[LiquidFeet]

....
I often ski with my boots unbuckled. About 90+% of the time....

All the buckles? What's the advantage?

Here's my guess: You ski fast off piste. The looseness gives you more range of motion in the ankles to absorb irregularities the snow throws at you.

 

[HDSkiing]

Instructors, do you teach your clients to do anything with their ankles?

Ah, nothing like the Ankles to foster a discussion amongst skiers, and in particular Instructors.

For me it really depends, beginning/novice level not so much, of course there is some discussion of how to apply it in the Athletic Stance Etc., how we might steer and tip and so on. That continues into the intermediate levels & just really depends on which skill or fundamental we are concentrating on.

I often will illustrate how the three joints of the Ankles, knees and hips affect fore/aft in isolation.

1. Simply, or only closing our hips (leaning forward) moves the CM forward.

2. Simply, or only closing the knees (bending them) moves our hips aft, and often the CM with it. This is where the danger of thinking only about bending the knees puts people in the back seat.

3. The ankles however offer us a much more efficient way to move our CM over our BoS (base of support). Close the ankles and the CM moves forward, open them and it moves aft.

Of course some proportion is required with the hips/knees as well. But since we are talking about ankles...

I think a lot of skiers get hung up on the idea of pulling the feet back, which is a great tactic but sounds counterintuitive. While pulling the feet back, like when you crest a mogul to get/keep the front of the skis on the snow might be a more active motion, like driving your heels towards your hips.

Closing the ankle can be more subtle, nothing more than thinking about pulling the toes into the top of the boot or towards the shins if you prefer.

So what’s the difference between just moving our upper body forward or aft and forgetting about the ankles? Well its less efficient and less precise. Ski/snow interaction occurs, well at the snow. The ankles, in terms of those three main hinges are the closest, allowing the change to travel up the kinetic chain as its sometimes referred (the rest of our body) rather than on waiting for input from up higher, and in a much less controlled way.

At the higher levels, where we are say trying to do a carved up hill arc having that ankle closed (foot pulled back) keeps the inside ski from sliding out, inducing rotation and thus a skid instead of a carve (in this drill). Taking that into Rail Road Tracks its the same concept. Don’t take my word for it, go out and try it both ways, then look back at your tracks. It may be achievable without closing the ankle and doing something else to isolate that ski into a pure edged carve, but again why when the ankle is the perfect mechanism?

Another good drill we sometimes do in mogul clinics is tossing the poles aside, we unbuckle our boots and go ski in the moguls. You will really feel how your ankle can move, and also to work on getting/staying centered without the support of the boot.

A life time ago when I was a young racer we used to do this thing to the outside ski at the bottom of the turn where we’d open the ankle on the outside ski, thrusting it forward (also at the end trying to get across the laser beam a 100th of a second faster) we called it stepping on the gas.

Anyway I was answering this in the context of what we do as instructors with clients regarding the ankles. It is far from inclusive and much can be added....

And we have not even talked about Rotation and Edging yet! Lol

 

[pliny the elder]

Thé easiest way to flex the ankle is by pulling the feet back.

You can also flex the ankles by moving the hips forward.


pliny the elder

 

[pliny the elder]

use the feet in skiing - YouTube

I like this one for using the feet.


pliny the elder

 

[Rod9301]

You can also flex the ankles by moving the hips forward.


pliny the elder

Sure you can, but it's a lot slower and it takes more energy

 

[Noodler]

Maybe for you this is the easiest way. This isn't the case for everyone.

Personally, I've thought about this method when I'm skiing and it feels awkward and not very effective. When you're skiing, gravity is pulling you down the hill. To pull the feet back is resisting gravity. You're pulling your feet in the opposite direction gravity wants you to go. Therefore I find it a lot easier and more efficient to think about bringing my knees and COM forward and downhill (working with gravity).

We're accomplishing the same thing. But my point being what's "easy" to someone, might not be the most efficient for someone else.

How?

What are the actual movements of body parts when you're thinking these thoughts? What muscles are contracting? Are any limbs extending? How are you accomplishing the changes in the relationship of the COM to the BOS?

 

[HardDaysNight]

You can also flex the ankles by moving the hips forward.


pliny the elder

Which are the “moving the hips forward” muscles? Forward relative to what?

 

[HardDaysNight]

Noodler has the same question I guess

 

[Lauren]

How?

What are the actual movements of body parts when you're thinking these thoughts? What muscles are contracting? Are any limbs extending? How are you accomplishing the changes in the relationship of the COM to the BOS?

I accomplish it in the same way that everyone that says they "pull their feet back" does....I close my ankles more.

Personally, when someone says pull your feet back, I don't see how this can happen without unweighting them. If I'm standing still on flat ground, I can't pull my feet back...they don't move. But, I can close my ankles without my feet moving, and I accomplish this by shifting my hips and COM forward. Same idea if I'm skiing and moving downhill...by feet aren't going to move in a rearward motion but I can move my hips (and COM) forward.

It's just a different train of thought on how to accomplish the same thing.

 

[KingGrump]

All the buckles? What's the advantage?

Here's my guess: You ski fast off piste. The looseness gives you more range of motion in the ankles to absorb irregularities the snow throws at you.

Yes, all the buckles.
Advantage? Don't know. It does allow me to stand on my own two feet. And probably ski off my feet too.

I don't really ski all that fast. But that is all relative. I like to ski the slow line fast. I also like to think I ski softly.

 

[LiquidFeet]

You can also flex the ankles by moving the hips forward.
pliny the elder

Using Bob Barnes' Infinity Move concept, there is a moment in a turn where the feet get ahead of the CoM, as in the first image below. To get those feet behind the CoM as in the second image, one can pull them back. This action does not disturb the continuing movement of the CoM down the hill. Hucking the CoM forward over the feet to get it ahead of them would perturb the CoM's movement. The smooth flow of the turns would no longer be smooth.



Sliding the feet/skis back relative to the CoM while making turns is easy. They are slipping along on the snow anyway and not attached to dry ground, so they obey that command with ease. The skis continue on their path down the hill the whole time one is sliding them back because that "back" is relative to the CoM, not relative to the snow.

Sliding the feet back may not be always necessary to get from the first image to the second. The shorter path of the CoM by default accomplishes the switch for feet ahead/feet behind. But getting the path of the CoM to be shorter than the path of the feet, without sliding the feet back nor hucking the CoM over them, is another topic. Maybe. Anyone want to talk about that?

For anyone reading here unfamiliar with Bob's video, here it is:

 

[pliny the elder]

Which are the “moving the hips forward” muscles? Forward relative to what?

As you begin to extend the inside leg in preparation for the edge change, you focus on making the femur more vertical and moving the hips ahead of the feet.
COM moves diagonally across the skis into the new turn.


pliny the elder

 

[Lauren]

To get those feet behind the CoM as in the second image, one can pull them back. This action does not disturb the continuing movement of the CoM down the hill. Hucking the CoM forward over the feet to get it ahead of them would perturb the CoM's movement. The smooth flow of the turns would no longer be smooth.

To get the COM ahead of the the feet as in the second image, one can move it forward. This action does not disturb the continuing movement of the BOS down the hill. Pulling the feet back under the COM to get them behind it would perturb the BoS movement. The smooth flow of the turns would no longer be smooth.

6 of one, 1/2 dozen of the other. It’s all about where you define your personal coordinates. Regardless of which way someone looks at it, you’re doing the same thing.

ETA: ideally both your BoS and your CoM will be moving smoothly at a consistent speed(albeit different trajectories and different speeds), and this doesn’t even come into play (as the infinity move shows)

 

[geepers]

I accomplish it in the same way that everyone that says they "pull their feet back" does....I close my ankles more.

Personally, when someone says pull your feet back, I don't see how this can happen without unweighting them. If I'm standing still on flat ground, I can't pull my feet back...they don't move. But, I can close my ankles without my feet moving, and I accomplish this by shifting my hips and COM forward. Same idea if I'm skiing and moving downhill...by feet aren't going to move in a rearward motion but I can move my hips (and COM) forward.

It's just a different train of thought on how to accomplish the same thing.

 

[geepers]

I've always found that to be rather circular reasoning. Without ground reaction force we have to use T. anterior to close the ankle.

We can only use hamstrings to close the ankle when there is ground to provide reaction force in front of the tibia and therefore we can only use hamstring pullback to close the ankle when we can pressure the front of the ski.

The obvious corollary here is that someone with unbuckled alpine boots or in XC boots or on skates who finds themselves back will never regain front/back balance using just the pullback move.

The second obvious corollary here is that we will never be able to use pullback with regular alpine boots with completely rockered skis (ones that describe a true arc in the sagittal plane), unless we can somehow launch ourselves into a tip roll from the backseat.

Not sure we on the same page here. I'm on about the difficulty of staying in fore/aft balance whilst extending/absorbing if the ankles are kept in a fixed position.