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geepers

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@geepers I worry about you and your true understanding of concepts and ideas that are different than your own. You should read the entire post to get the reply.

Any release (or lack of retention) is about the amount of energy transfer (“a lot“ just means it is higher than normally envisioned :doh:). Generally, to achieve these at higher settings than normal, the term impulse (ie significantly more rapid than normal :doh:) sums it up pretty good.

Yeah, I generally find the best way to improve communication is to repeat the same thing only speak louder and do a lot of agi high fives.

Some-one else might have wondered how the energy input got high enough, fast enough to pop the circuit breaker. But we now know KG ski walks with poetic alacrity. That's a technical term and typically measured in units of pa.;)

I'm puzzled where @KingGrump stores the DIN screwdriver when skiing.:P
 

Mike King

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Came across this vid - relevant bit is 5:52 to 7:05. This is from a CSIA workshop at Interski 2011. At this point at least seems CSIA othodoxy was center of the ski, not so much fore/aft as some other nations. What he says at 6:58. Likely to still be that way as not hearing anything otherwise on recent CSIA courses.

Great video. Watch the skiing from 10:40 or so for the difference between being in the center of the ski (CSIA guy) and being forward (the folk from other teams).
 

Tony S

I have a confusion to make ...
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BEGIN PSA

I've spent quite a bit of time skiing with @KingGrump, as well as with lots and lots of other Pugs.. He's a 99th+ percentile skier. Knows what he's doing. Many of us don't. (Just saying.) He's also a character. Feed him at your own risk. It's always a well-laid trap. ogwink Better to just follow and watch.

As for the unbuckled thing ... Just because I admire someone doesn't mean I want to imitate all his bizarre idiosyncrasies. Would love to paint like Van Gogh, but don't plan on cutting my ear off anytime soon.

END PSA
 

Average Joe

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It’s a good demonstration. I think what is lost in a lot of the comments, however, is there’s a difference between simply letting the ankle bend (say as a result of letting your knees bend and letting your weight pressure the boot) and actually using ankle muscles and foot angle to try to bend/balance/influence your skiing.

From what I can tell just from doing your exercise and doing others like trying to lean forward, bend my knees, etc, the majority of ankle and foot muscle use involves reinforcing/tightening/locking the ankles and feet in varying positions to make them stiff enough to counter the weight shifting. The ski boot takes a lot of the brunt in this regard; you can actually bend your knees, lean forward, and relax your ankle at the same time in boots.

I think the majority of my ski angle and edging involves knee and leg/hip rotation, but I also think ankle muscles are still employed within the boot to provide some degree of cantilever, etc as you’re trying to push against the boot in various ways. You’re not going to bend the boot at the ankle joint laterally, for example, but the pressure you’re putting on the boot from within is a part of the puzzle. Sometimes your heel is pressing the boot, sometimes the top of your foot, sometimes the arch, etc and that wouldn’t work without employing the ankles within the boot to tighten your foot and use it as a lever on occasion.
If we are able to stand on the edge and balance fore and aft, we can vary our turn shape and tempo.
As stated in this thread, long ago skiers using low cut leather boots were able to control 220 cm skis, so why the need for modern high cuff plastic shells?
Aside from the obvious advantage of side to side control, the higher tongue more easily translates forward movement of the lower leg into downward force on the toe. This force is forward of the center of sidecut, and positively engages turn initiation. But when you think about it, similar forces are available to a skier applying strong pressure under the ball of the foot and big toe (similar but different) with a loose top buckle.
An argument can be made that modern boots can make it “too easy” to get out of balance, recovery from getting thrown back can be challenging. Old style low cut boot skiing (I am guessing from my x/c experience ) put a premium on finding and maintaining precise fore and aft balance.
 

KingGrump

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BEGIN PSA

I've spent quite a bit of time skiing with @KingGrump, as well as with lots and lots of other Pugs.. He's a 99th+ percentile skier. Knows what he's doing. Many of us don't. (Just saying.) He's also a character. Feed him at your own risk. It's always a well-laid trap. ogwink Better to just follow and watch.

As for the unbuckled thing ... Just because I admire someone doesn't mean I want to imitate all his bizarre idiosyncrasies. Would love to paint like Van Gogh, but don't plan on cutting my ear off anytime soon.

END PSA

Dude, why do you have to go and spoil all the fun?

Let me tell ya. Ears like buckles are way over rated.




"]I would berried that they are too short.[/QUOTE]

BEGIN PSA

I've spent quite a bit of time skiing with @KingGrump, as well as with lots and lots of other Pugs.. He's a 99th+ percentile skier. Knows what he's doing. Many of us don't. (Just saying.) He's also a character. Feed him at your own risk. It's always a well-laid trap. ogwink Better to just follow and watch.

As for the unbuckled thing ... Just because I admire someone doesn't mean I want to imitate all his bizarre idiosyncrasies. Would love to paint like Van Gogh, but don't plan on cutting my ear off anytime soon.

END PSA
 

Mike King

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If we are able to stand on the edge and balance fore and aft, we can vary our turn shape and tempo.
As stated in this thread, long ago skiers using low cut leather boots were able to control 220 cm skis, so why the need for modern high cuff plastic shells?
Aside from the obvious advantage of side to side control, the higher tongue more easily translates forward movement of the lower leg into downward force on the toe. This force is forward of the center of sidecut, and positively engages turn initiation. But when you think about it, similar forces are available to a skier applying strong pressure under the ball of the foot and big toe (similar but different) with a loose top buckle.
An argument can be made that modern boots can make it “too easy” to get out of balance, recovery from getting thrown back can be challenging. Old style low cut boot skiing (I am guessing from my x/c experience ) put a premium on finding and maintaining precise fore and aft balance.
How does strong pressure under the ball of the foot and big toe lead to positively engaging turn initiation?

I'd argue that stiff plastic boots (fore and aft) are an advantage to regaining balance rather than losing it.

Mike
 

Rod9301

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How does strong pressure under the ball of the foot and big toe lead to positively engaging turn initiation?

I'd argue that stiff plastic boots (fore and aft) are an advantage to regaining balance rather than losing it.

Mike
You do not need pressure under the big toe to pressure the front of the ski.
It can be done with the weight under the arch by moving the feet back
 

Mike King

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Ok, let's try it this way. How much do you think this guy is pressuring the tip of the skis? Looks to me like he is perfectly able to initiate a turn without use of the tongue of the boot or by pulling the feet back...

 

Average Joe

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How does strong pressure under the ball of the foot and big toe lead to positively engaging turn initiation?

I'd argue that stiff plastic boots (fore and aft) are an advantage to regaining balance rather than losing it.

Mike
Not sure how to correctly answer the question.
The opposite to weight forward iwould be weight back during the initiation. I’d prefer my weight closer to the toe than the heel.
 

Scruffy

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Ok, let's try it this way. How much do you think this guy is pressuring the tip of the skis? Looks to me like he is perfectly able to initiate a turn without use of the tongue of the boot or by pulling the feet back...


Cool vid. Years ago there was a vid of a group of skiers on XC skate skis skiing one of the Alps ski areas doing some rather rad skiing including mild jumps and steeps. I can't find it on the web now.
 

Scruffy

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How does strong pressure under the ball of the foot and big toe lead to positively engaging turn initiation?

I'd argue that stiff plastic boots (fore and aft) are an advantage to regaining balance rather than losing it.

Mike

You can certainly pressure the first metatarsal without crushing the boot cuff.
 

Mike King

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You can certainly pressure the first metatarsal without crushing the boot cuff.
Sure, but why? Look at this post: #1 for example, particularly the parts related to Tim Cafe and Tom Gellie. Note that Sebastian Michel's comment about moving forward is directed at those who have mistakenly allowed their hips to settle aft at the finish of the turn.
 

Blue Streak

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Lot of good video in this discussion. I saw this last week and thought it should go here. What would Deb do?

That's a really good description of the sensation of controlling the relationship between the center of mass and the base of support to direct pressure along the length of the ski.
 
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TS
LiquidFeet

LiquidFeet

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I've skied with Deb Armstrong. She is just that energetic in person, always high energy, totally interested in sharing information in a usable form for her students.
 
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Scruffy

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Sure, but why? Look at this post: #1 for example, particularly the parts related to Tim Cafe and Tom Gellie. Note that Sebastian Michel's comment about moving forward is directed at those who have mistakenly allowed their hips to settle aft at the finish of the turn.

Nothing I read in your link to that thread negates what I'm implying in pressuring the first metatarsal. In fact I'd say that Tom Gellie's statement: "Tipping the skis is most effective if the angle of the tipping in the foot is diagonal and toward the back, not straight across or ahead. (Imagine your foot is a triangle with the toes as the wide top and the heel as the narrowest point. Tip along the line running from front to back.) ..." is exactly what I'm talking about. There's a diagonal line between your heel and first met. Move your pressure along that line, for the outside ski. Note: this has nothing to do with being in the back seat or allowing hips to settle aft, nor does it have anything to do with crushing the boot cuff in an attempt to over pressure the tip of the ski to tighten up the ski radius. This is a semi-subtle move within a ski boot and can happen even with a centered style of skiing.

At ski flat in transition, even if you're forward and not in the back seat, your center of pressure is toward your heels. Moving your COP ( center of pressure ) of the new-to-be outside ski during ski flat transition to pressure your new-to-be outside foot's first med sets up a whole chain of events that allow you to get on edge early ( see below*) through foot eversion, and tensions the plantar fascia and that in turn tensions your entire deep front line to your core. This foot to core sequencing is necessary to structurally align yourself to deal with balance during human locomotion ( thus balancing on the outside ski ) ; esp. when the surface is not smooth and linear.

Check this out: https://skimoves.me/2016/01/23/heel-pressure-vs-heelfirst-metatarsal-pressure-differential-2/

Note *: ( Sebastien Michel: "Tipping the edges to maximum angle needs to happen relatively quickly to ensure the turn shape does not become too long or allow speed to get out of control.")
 

Mike King

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Nothing I read in your link to that thread negates what I'm implying in pressuring the first metatarsal. In fact I'd say that Tom Gellie's statement: "Tipping the skis is most effective if the angle of the tipping in the foot is diagonal and toward the back, not straight across or ahead. (Imagine your foot is a triangle with the toes as the wide top and the heel as the narrowest point. Tip along the line running from front to back.) ..." is exactly what I'm talking about. There's a diagonal line between your heel and first met. Move your pressure along that line, for the outside ski. Note: this has nothing to do with being in the back seat or allowing hips to settle aft, nor does it have anything to do with crushing the boot cuff in an attempt to over pressure the tip of the ski to tighten up the ski radius. This is a semi-subtle move within a ski boot and can happen even with a centered style of skiing.

At ski flat in transition, even if you're forward and not in the back seat, your center of pressure is toward your heels. Moving your COP ( center of pressure ) of the new-to-be outside ski during ski flat transition to pressure your new-to-be outside foot's first med sets up a whole chain of events that allow you to get on edge early ( see below*) through foot eversion, and tensions the plantar fascia and that in turn tensions your entire deep front line to your core. This foot to core sequencing is necessary to structurally align yourself to deal with balance during human locomotion ( thus balancing on the outside ski ) ; esp. when the surface is not smooth and linear.

Check this out: https://skimoves.me/2016/01/23/heel-pressure-vs-heelfirst-metatarsal-pressure-differential-2/

Note *: ( Sebastien Michel: "Tipping the edges to maximum angle needs to happen relatively quickly to ensure the turn shape does not become too long or allow speed to get out of control.")
Then we are in relative agreement, although I tend to think of feeling the pressure slightly in front of the heel as opposed to the first metatarsal.

Mike
 

bmoose21

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An interesting exercise is to stand on a balance board (one that wobbles in all directions) in your ski boots. You will become very aware of your ankle movements, and exactly how pressure is felt inside the boot while attempting to balance. You can also test out being static with your ankles while attempting to balance from higher up the chain. Even in snug fitting race boots being passive with the ankles doesn't work very well.
 

Chris V.

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I skied in my usual devil may care fashion one whole morning on an opening day, before realizing at lunch time that I had forgotten to reset the bindings from 1 after turning them down the spring before. I no longer turn them down for the summer.

A friend of mine once started from the top of the run, all excited to be in the first race of the season, and in the first turn launched out of both bindings. Same story.
 

razie

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Way too many good thoughts and questions to answer at length - I stopped halfway through :)

You can bend your ankles left and right, laterally. This movement tips the boots/skis onto their edges.

Inversion and eversion are whole foot movements, not just in the ankle.

This is perhaps my favorite photo:

m-tip-3.jpg


You can clearly see how the flexed leg allows foot tipping and how the tipping on the inside foot is driven from the bottom up, i.e. from inside the boot, given the relative position of the cuff! You'd never leave the ankles behind, to be dragged around by the knees... would you?

You can also see how the boots are matched (i.e. the inside is held back).

I have found that when I consciously "close the ankle" in conjunction with pulling the feet back and engaging my turn forces, things work out better.
I don't really tip my ankles; I think of my skis as my feet and tip them when I ski.
:thumb:

When we pull the feet back, is the ankle closing due to action, or reaction?

I don't know the answer, I'm asking.

Closing the ankle, dorsiflexion, like most other movements, should not be a passive movement. I.e. the ankle is not passive when closed by say pulling the heels back, they work together. The TA muscle (Tibialis Anterior) tends to be very well developed in racers and good skiers.

My ankles tend to stay closed purposefully, for some of the turn. And my TAs tend to be much bigger at the end of the season :rolleyes:

I don't race so I can't speak for why all (or any) racers would use that method. Maybe it's universally easier if you're racing (i.e. fast speeds, arcing hard turns, and on groomed hard-snow terrain) to use that method. :huh:

All I was saying is there are different cues that different people use to get themselves forward and flex their ankles...at least in the recreational world.

As you flex to let the skis surface up in powder, or on bumps, it is critical to maintain ankles closed and pullback the heels, even if only to not let the tips of the skis drop and get out of control. If you have any kind of room inside the boot, where you should have some, you will need to be proactive to control the tips as you flex, especially on soft snow or bumps where you unweight a lot.

You can also flex the ankles by moving the hips forward.
pliny the elder

Not really, I don't think. How do you move the hips forward? Forward of what? It's in fact the complete opposite. To "push" the hips forward, is rather impossible if you don't keep the heels back at the same time, and you will then likely use the toes to push, i.e. pedal motion, i.e. the opposite of closing the ankles.

Remember the hips have a lot of mass and inertia, in fact we are much more free to move all the extremities in relation to the core rather than the other way around!

As you begin to extend the inside leg in preparation for the edge change, you focus on making the femur more vertical and moving the hips ahead of the feet.
COM moves diagonally across the skis into the new turn.

pliny the elder

No... First off, the inside leg rarely extends. Depending on the performance, of course, but it tends to stay around 90 degrees or so for expert recreational skiing, extending slightly if at all.

m-flexing-2.jpg


Also, "more" vertical femurs means standing up in transition - it's relegated to a subset of transitions... not the most performant ones. You can also see closed ankles above. He's not on the backs of the cuffs.

Also, extending before the transition will always push the COM back and up the hill, not forward across the skis. Think about the geometry before transition (left above). The only way to let the COM flow across the skis is to relax and flex the outside leg... the opposite of "extension".

my 2c,
cheers
 
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