What to do with ankles as you ski

[LiquidFeet]

Here's a topic for some fun discussion.

You can close and open your ankles. This movement tilts the lower leg forward or upright, thus moving the knee fore-aft.
You can bend your ankles left and right, laterally. This movement tips the boots/skis onto their edges.
You can rotate your feet at the ankles (which twists the lower leg) to point the forefeet inward or outward, left or right.

What do you do with your ankles as you ski?
Instructors, do you teach your clients to do anything with their ankles?

 

[Eleeski]

Ankle movement is a subtle factor. Boot design forces this as there isn't a lot of possible movement from just ankle effort due to the stiffness of the boot. Other stronger body parts generate boot flexion.

With that said, a focus on ankles can be very helpful. If someone breaks at the waist while trying to bend the knees, telling them to bend the ankles keeps the desired knee movement without breaking at the waist.

Ankle movements are also useful for getting the desired pressure of the foot in the boot. Using subtle ankle movement can get weight off the heels, onto the shin, on the desired edge or just balancing over the ski.

One thing I try to avoid is twisting the ankle much. Usually a focus on tightening the ankle so the skis are solid with the hips works best (even for tricks like a twister).

Relaxing the ankles is also a good way to get a nice balanced flow started through the whole body.

Eric

 

[pchewn]

Ankle movement is a subtle factor. Boot design forces this as there isn't a lot of possible movement from just ankle effort due to the stiffness of the boot. Other stronger body parts generate boot flexion.

With that said, a focus on ankles can be very helpful. If someone breaks at the waist while trying to bend the knees, telling them to bend the ankles keeps the desired knee movement without breaking at the waist.

Ankle movements are also useful for getting the desired pressure of the foot in the boot. Using subtle ankle movement can get weight off the heels, onto the shin, on the desired edge or just balancing over the ski.

One thing I try to avoid is twisting the ankle much. Usually a focus on tightening the ankle so the skis are solid with the hips works best (even for tricks like a twister).

Relaxing the ankles is also a good way to get a nice balanced flow started through the whole body.

Eric

My thoughts exactly. I do not agree with people who say to "bend your ankles" or "tip your ankle" while skiing. The ski boot is much stronger than ankle muscles. But yes, you should be able to feel your ankle move when you place the rest of your body to put enough pressure on your boot to move/flex/pressure the ankle/boot combination.

 

[Dakine]

You cannot flex a boot much by using muscle forces in your ankle.
Flexing a boot takes tongue pressure.
I pay a lot of attention to tongue pressure and relaxing into the boots when skiing.
Other folks have an issue with this so lets discuss.
I'll be back with some data after I get my snow blower mounted and stuff....

 

[Rod9301]

You cannot flex a boot much by using muscle forces in your ankle.
Flexing a boot takes tongue pressure.
I pay a lot of attention to tongue pressure and relaxing into the boots when skiing.
Other folks have an issue with this so lets discuss.
I'll be back with some data after I get my snow blower mounted and stuff....

Thé easiest way to flex the ankle is by pulling the feet back.

 

[Tony S]

Curse them. Mine are always speaking up out of turn. Whiners.

 

[François Pugh]

I have a pair of those boots that are frowned upon by most these days, the ones that fit very tight, are heavily posted, very stiff and solid. The only way to flex the ankle for me is with turn force and body momentum. Nevertheless, I have found that when I consciously "close the ankle" in conjunction with pulling the feet back and engaging my turn forces, things work out better.
I don't really tip my ankles; I think of my skis as my feet and tip them when I ski.

 

[geepers]

Here's a topic for some fun discussion.

You can close and open your ankles. This movement tilts the lower leg forward or upright, thus moving the knee fore-aft.
You can bend your ankles left and right, laterally. This movement tips the boots/skis onto their edges.
You can rotate your feet at the ankles (which twists the lower leg) to point the forefeet inward or outward, left or right.

What do you do with your ankles as you ski?
Instructors, do you teach your clients to do anything with their ankles?

Subtalar joint. As in:
- this is a preview to a longer $ vid.

Began to experiment with this last northern season for increasing edge angle / preserving platform angle on the outside ski. By rolling the inside of the heel into the boot Assuming everything else (balance, separation, angulation) is basically ok then it's effective.

 

[LiquidFeet]

Everything you ever wanted to know about how the ankle moves.
Both the ankle joint and subtalar joint movements are discussed.
If anatomical terms drive you nuts, consider watching it without audio.

 

[Blue Streak]

Wow! What an amazing video!

 

[pliny the elder]

I would suggest that skiing occurs in the mid foot. If the best turn begins with an edge change, which it does, then this takes place in the sub talar and mid tarsal joints.

Every time you turn left, you supinate your left foot and you pronate your right foot. This creates rotation in the legs that allows the pelvis to move across center and provides an intrinsic redirection of the skis as the edge change occurs.

In my experience, once fore/aft balance is established , most of ski boot set up involves influencing this rotation. Some people benefit from a little more rotation, some have too much and benefit from a reduction. The foot and ankle are capable of finely tuned movements, and they can create movement through the pelvis and into the lower spine.

If you aren't controlling the action of your skis with your foot and ankle, what are you doing? And why else would the boots be so important? If it wasn't all about the feet and ankles?

Your results may of course vary.

pliny the elder

 

[pchewn]

If you aren't controlling the action of your skis with your foot and ankle, what are you doing? And why else would the boots be so important? If it wasn't all about the feet and ankles?

In my experience, the boots are important primarily to support the connection between ski and lower leg by immobilizing the ankle and NOT relying on ankle motion to influence the ski.

Imagine a boot that is "0" flex. The ankle muscles alone have to transfer all of the tipping and flexing forces between the skier and the ski.

Imagine a boot that is "99999999" flex. A perfect "cast". The ankle could be broken, the bones removed and not working at all and the skier could still transfer tipping and flexing forces to the ski.

Our modern day ski boots are much closer to "9999999" flex than "0" flex. The ankle is influenced by outside forces (from the lower leg and rest of body) to ever so slightly flex and tip, along with the ski boot.

Because the ankle is encased in a rigid plastic shell (an exoskeleton), we really have to think of the ankle/boot combination as a system. As a system, the contribution of the boot is much more than the contribution of the ankle joint.

 

[Fishbowl]

When we pull the feet back, is the ankle closing due to action, or reaction?

I don't know the answer, I'm asking.

 

[KingGrump]

In my experience, the boots are important primarily to support the connection between ski and lower leg by immobilizing the ankle and NOT relying on ankle motion to influence the ski.

Imagine a boot that is "0" flex. The ankle muscles alone have to transfer all of the tipping and flexing forces between the skier and the ski.

Imagine a boot that is "99999999" flex. A perfect "cast". The ankle could be broken, the bones removed and not working at all and the skier could still transfer tipping and flexing forces to the ski.

Our modern day ski boots are much closer to "9999999" flex than "0" flex. The ankle is influenced by outside forces (from the lower leg and rest of body) to ever so slightly flex and tip, along with the ski boot.

Because the ankle is encased in a rigid plastic shell (an exoskeleton), we really have to think of the ankle/boot combination as a system. As a system, the contribution of the boot is much more than the contribution of the ankle joint.

If one is to unbuckle the boot. All four buckles. What would the flex be?

 

[pliny the elder]

In my experience, the boots are important primarily to support the connection between ski and lower leg by immobilizing the ankle and NOT relying on ankle motion to influence the ski.

Imagine a boot that is "0" flex. The ankle muscles alone have to transfer all of the tipping and flexing forces between the skier and the ski.

Imagine a boot that is "99999999" flex. A perfect "cast". The ankle could be broken, the bones removed and not working at all and the skier could still transfer tipping and flexing forces to the ski.

Our modern day ski boots are much closer to "9999999" flex than "0" flex. The ankle is influenced by outside forces (from the lower leg and rest of body) to ever so slightly flex and tip, along with the ski boot.

Because the ankle is encased in a rigid plastic shell (an exoskeleton), we really have to think of the ankle/boot combination as a system. As a system, the contribution of the boot is much more than the contribution of the ankle joint.

Perhaps you didn't watch the videos.

pliny the elder

 

[geepers]

In my experience, the boots are important primarily to support the connection between ski and lower leg by immobilizing the ankle and NOT relying on ankle motion to influence the ski.

Imagine a boot that is "0" flex. The ankle muscles alone have to transfer all of the tipping and flexing forces between the skier and the ski.

Imagine a boot that is "99999999" flex. A perfect "cast". The ankle could be broken, the bones removed and not working at all and the skier could still transfer tipping and flexing forces to the ski.

Our modern day ski boots are much closer to "9999999" flex than "0" flex. The ankle is influenced by outside forces (from the lower leg and rest of body) to ever so slightly flex and tip, along with the ski boot.

Because the ankle is encased in a rigid plastic shell (an exoskeleton), we really have to think of the ankle/boot combination as a system. As a system, the contribution of the boot is much more than the contribution of the ankle joint.

Maybe some-one could get down a hill on skis with totally locked ankles. But what sort of skiing would it be?

Must say everything I've heard and experienced in recent years is that mobility in the foot and ankle, limited though it may be inside a ski boot, is important to good skiing. For example, it's very hard to flex or extend the knees and hips (for pressure management) without also affecting fore/aft balance if the ankles are completely locked. And makes it hard to utilse supernation / pronation.

Yes the boot provides essential support but had best allow the ankle/foot some small mobility.

If one is to unbuckle the boot. All four buckles. What would the flex be?

Closer to the zero flex than the 9999999. I'm thinking that you have a point with that question...?

 

[cantunamunch]

Must say everything I've heard and experienced in recent years is that mobility in the foot and ankle, limited though it may be inside a ski boot, is important to good skiing. For example, it's very hard to flex or extend the knees and hips (for pressure management) without also affecting fore/aft balance if the ankles are completely locked.

I've always found that to be rather circular reasoning. Without ground reaction force we have to use T. anterior to close the ankle.

We can only use hamstrings to close the ankle when there is ground to provide reaction force in front of the tibia and therefore we can only use hamstring pullback to close the ankle when we can pressure the front of the ski.

The obvious corollary here is that someone with unbuckled alpine boots or in XC boots or on skates who finds themselves back will never regain front/back balance using just the pullback move.

The second obvious corollary here is that we will never be able to use pullback with regular alpine boots with completely rockered skis (ones that describe a true arc in the sagittal plane), unless we can somehow launch ourselves into a tip roll from the backseat.

 

[Lauren]

Thé easiest way to flex the ankle is by pulling the feet back.

Maybe for you this is the easiest way. This isn't the case for everyone.

Personally, I've thought about this method when I'm skiing and it feels awkward and not very effective. When you're skiing, gravity is pulling you down the hill. To pull the feet back is resisting gravity. You're pulling your feet in the opposite direction gravity wants you to go. Therefore I find it a lot easier and more efficient to think about bringing my knees and COM forward and downhill (working with gravity).

We're accomplishing the same thing. But my point being what's "easy" to someone, might not be the most efficient for someone else.

 

[KingGrump]

Closer to the zero flex than the 9999999. I'm thinking that you have a point with that question...?

Nothing in particular. I am not an instructor, so unlike most instructor here, I don't really think when I am skiing. So I really have no clue what is going on.
I often ski with my boots unbuckled. About 90+% of the time. Just wondering.

 

[Average Joe]

World Cup downhillers use softer flexing boots than World Cup slalom skiers.
I would venture that at the top levels of our sport there is a high emphasis on ankle strength and eversion capabilities.
When a footbed supports the whole length of the foot, and the shell is properly sized and fit, the limited ankle eversion range can be utilized.
As a test, ski gentle groomers with the top two unbuckled. If you struggle to stay on the edge using the whole foot and ankle, have a chat with a boot fitter and footbed shop. Dialing your balance without using the tongue is a good test.