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What is “Edging”?
- Thread starter Average Joe
- Start date
Looks like I could have used that slap a while ago...
For the (modules?) you haven’t achieved (PSIA speak for passed) yet, what feedback did you get? Asking because I plan on working towards PSIA 3 and am keen on learning what challenges others have encountered.
Best investment for Level 3? Tom Gellie's website...
No idea what's needed for PSIA LIII.
I've written a fair bit about CSIA L3 teach assess in this thread and others if you wish to look. However doubt it directly correlates. I know APSI L3 is quite different in tasks and assessments although I doubt there's a huge difference in capabilities of the instructors. Note both CSIA and APSI are 4 level systems and some have said the ranking would be something like: CSIA 2 / PSIA 2 / CSIA 3 / Daylight / PSIA 3 / CSIA 4.
Reckon Mike King has a point.
- Joined
- Apr 25, 2017
- Posts
- 128
Wow! Haven't been able to respond in a while and things have become interesting. Where does one start?
Lets start with biomechaninics. There has been a lot of talk about the subtalar joint and the mitred hinge. We need to remember that those movements are dependent on a couple of things. First, the knee is a hinge joint. That means it has no lateral movement. It also means that any movement below it requires a "unlocking" of the femur and the tibial plateau. As the knee flexes it starts to unlock the relationship with the femur and the leg. The more it is flexed the more the leg has the opportunity to move without the involvment of the femur/hip socket. The relationship doesn't fully evolve until the knee is flexed at 90 degrees or less. At this point the leg has the ability to move on its own without the femur/hip. Second; all movements come from the femur/hip in a closed environment. We ski in a closed environment. Wether some think so or not. When in a closed environment movements come from the femur/hip. Not the talus joint and tibial rotation. This is important because we need to understand how this impacts our relationship with our hips/pelvis and why they are so important in skiing. This is not to say I don't agree with the foot/ski being the focus. We just need to understand where the movement comes from.
While there are many that speak about the ability to move in ways that may seem logical, these movements may not come from the place we feel they do! The foot/talus has a lot of movement. However that movement in skiing is reserved for balance adjustments and feeling in skiing.
There is also a lot of talk about how things should be started. Foot up or hip down. There is no right answer here. The answer is what works for the individual. Not the teacher or coach. It is important that we concentrate on our client/subject rather on what works for us.
Lets start with biomechaninics. There has been a lot of talk about the subtalar joint and the mitred hinge. We need to remember that those movements are dependent on a couple of things. First, the knee is a hinge joint. That means it has no lateral movement. It also means that any movement below it requires a "unlocking" of the femur and the tibial plateau. As the knee flexes it starts to unlock the relationship with the femur and the leg. The more it is flexed the more the leg has the opportunity to move without the involvment of the femur/hip socket. The relationship doesn't fully evolve until the knee is flexed at 90 degrees or less. At this point the leg has the ability to move on its own without the femur/hip. Second; all movements come from the femur/hip in a closed environment. We ski in a closed environment. Wether some think so or not. When in a closed environment movements come from the femur/hip. Not the talus joint and tibial rotation. This is important because we need to understand how this impacts our relationship with our hips/pelvis and why they are so important in skiing. This is not to say I don't agree with the foot/ski being the focus. We just need to understand where the movement comes from.
While there are many that speak about the ability to move in ways that may seem logical, these movements may not come from the place we feel they do! The foot/talus has a lot of movement. However that movement in skiing is reserved for balance adjustments and feeling in skiing.
There is also a lot of talk about how things should be started. Foot up or hip down. There is no right answer here. The answer is what works for the individual. Not the teacher or coach. It is important that we concentrate on our client/subject rather on what works for us.
Thread Starter
TS
- Joined
- Jul 5, 2017
- Posts
- 555
I disagree that all movements come from the femur and hip joint. Lay / sit on the floor and rotate and invert/evert your ankle, it appears (to the untrained, i.e. me) easily done without moving your femur and rotation of the hip in the socket. But I'm not degreed in human biomechanics.
Additionally, the original question that opened the thread is, what is edging, and how is it taught/described?
Over the past 13 pages of posts, I've read dozens of interpretations but precious few descriptions of specific movements. I've read that within the associations, that the word has different meaning depending on the nation, author, examiner, and decade: everything and nothing at the same time.
Speaking of thread drift, there's at least three types of rotation vis-a-vis applying torque about an axis perpendicular to the plane of the ski: rotation that allows your feet to follow the skis around a carved turn without resistance, eliminating that torque at the boot; there's deliberately applied rotation causes the feet to make the skis rotate due to the applied torque at the boot; and, there's rotation that applies a torque at the boot to rotate the skis that many skiers don't even know they are applying (e.g. pulling inside foot back while transferring weight to outside foot).
Oh yes, the "force couple."
It's how a snow cat or a tank can turn on a dime.
Skiers can use this if they only would.
Pull that inside foot back!
Good point. Also there is the rotation or rather the effort needed to create/maintain separation/coiling... maxed out in like bumps or steeps or Slalom turns etc.
Double like.
I’d say, with straight knee, I can let my foot “drop” to cause an ankle rotation. But, in a ski boot, I can’t let my foot drop. To rotate, I need to rotate the femur in hip socket.
It's a matter of perspective, input (action) and output (result).
I *can* turn my entire long leg and foot and pivot the ski across the direction of travel - active femur rotation
I *can* also put the ski on edge with inclination/abduction/extension/foot tipping and just relax to create separation and let the ski turn because of the ski shape and snow GRF - passive femur rotation
Point being - once the ski is engaged, the snow turns it. What does the skier have to do to allow it? Some do not allow or create counter or rotational separation, just stay tensed on top of a non-turning femur and rotate into the turn like this (look at the hip/femur and there is very little rotation - pretty square, skiing without femur rotation, is that good or bad?) :
Others relax and allow the femur to turn, turned by the engaged ski, legs long or short:
or
Basically, once you engage and put pressure on the ski on edge, it will turn! You have two options:
- don't allow the femur to rotate and thus turn the upper body with the ski (rotation)
- allow the femur to rotate (thus creating counter and separation of upper and lower body)
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Of course... but now we get into the non-binary aspect of it. For instance.
- If I reduce my rate of angle creation in relation to the pressure and grip in the turn, I will drift and likely redirect before engaging - did I use "active rotary" or not? This is probably the most common form of redirection in my skiing while adjusting line with the terrain - simple timing changes, not movement changes.
- If I push my heel while on edge, before grip, I will redirect the ski - did I use "active rotary" or not?
- If I get too far forward, the tails will slide more before eventually gripping - did I use "active rotary" or not?
- etc
And also - the snow turns the ski even before edge lock. Say at 60% grip - the ski still bends and is redirected into a turn - this is not a binary thing... it's not 0% and then suddenly 100%... what we can do with these "less than edge locked maneuvers" is to make it turn faster than the snow would...
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Well - since we went full circle and got to the bottom of it
I don't see it that black and white.In my mind, it is easy. It is too easy. In fact it's so easy it can become a crutch and it is a crutch for many people and if you start using it right off the bat, you will not learn the other things... so, to learn and fine-tune the other things, you *must* refrain from doing it. The more and the better you want to get at the other things, the more you have to refrain from doing this one...
It's also not needed, most of the time... and if you master the other ways, using this one becomes a matter of choice, not the only thing you can do... etc.
Also, it's not effective, so not learning the other things is a bad idea. It has big drawbacks, like creating an angular momentum which you then have to control (overshoot), it reduces balance (it's much harder to balance on a moving platform) etc. Also, it doesn't work at higher angles, so performance skiing is not what you'll ever get by doing it. At the higher angles, it's all the other ways that work, not this one...
So... given that:
- it's limited applicability
- not effective everywhere
- the more you spend time doing it, the less you spend time doing and working on the other things
- if you master the other things, using this one when you want is even easier than easy.
... why focus on it at all?
Whatever. The way anyone chooses to ski and the limitations one chooses to impose on oneself and students, that's certainly up to them...
I drive to get places and mostly on asphalt, so meh is fine - I don't need to learn how to direct the car with the throttle, the brakes or weight shifting or gripping the side of the road or doing a Scandinavian flick or any of that.
I ski to have fun and that means performance in 3D terrain, so meh is not fine for me
.Also, I am happy we have agreement, such as it is.
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