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What is “Edging”?

Uke

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anyone want to get in on a pool about when the mods arrive
 

karlo

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Religious zeal is characterized by five things.

1. absolute certainty about the truth
.....that the truth is already revealed and that it is important to know this truth

2. a specific document(s) reveals this truth
.....therefore the truth is available to anyone who will avail themselves of the document(s)
.....the document(s) proclaims that it contains the absolute truth, and all of it
.....the document(s) usually is generated by one person who finds the truth and wants to deliver it to others
.....truth-knowers learn to understand and apply the truth from teachers who teach the truth as revealed in the document(s).

3. us vs them mentality
.....the truth-knowers know and recognize each other; they may have an organization and a name
.....they stick together, and often protect themselves from contamination by outsiders by staying away from those who don't know the truth
.....they know and recognize the non-truth-knowers as outsiders, sometimes even as the enemy
.....truth-knowers often work to convert non-truth-knowers, but they must be careful to not fall under their influence as they make contact

4. all-or-nothing commitment to the truth as revealed
.....to be a member of the truth-knowers, one needs to commit to and affirm all that is in the truth-revealing document(s)
.....no questioning of details or exceptions is allowed; one cannot pick and choose what to affirm

5. dire consequences for those who do not know and cling to the truth
.....these consequences apply to those who have never known the truth
.....they apply to those who have encountered the truth but choose to question the absoluteness or the completeness of the truth as revealed in the document(s) and taught by the truth-knowers
.....these dire consequences also apply to those who once affirmed it all but choose to leave the fold

I came up with this list from a book on Christian fundamentalism that I was reading a few years back. I happened to be reading this book when I took a certain week-long ski camp at A-Basin and encountered the religious zeal expressed by participants and promoted by its leader. It appeared to me that the fundamentalists in the book and the campers at A-Basin were acting alike. So I paraphrased what I was reading in the book in more general terms to see if it applied to the people at the camp.

It did.
Trying to get this in now, in case the thread is closed. There are three kinds.

1. Those who know the truth
2. Those who seek the truth
and,
3. Those who don’t care what the truth is.

The latter often denies whatever truths there are for his or her own ends :)
 
Thread Starter
TS
Average Joe

Average Joe

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Well I’m disappointed that things progressed to a point.
An honest question about teaching styles (I’m an ex instructor but currently a coach) shouldn’t end up here. My hope was that these pages would be a discussion of how different people or associations teach or describe something that (I believe ) they take for granted everyone “knows.”
I’d hope the parties currently emotionally elevated can tone it back down and allow the original topic to continue.
 

Steve

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As I think my posts contributed greatly to this, I apologize. The argument between razie and geepers brought back memories of years of “active rotary is bad” proselytizing on epic and I just couldn’t stop myself from objecting.

Again I’m sorry.
 

karlo

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The argument
It doesn't have to be an argument of what is right and wrong. It can simply be a sharing of points of view. A lot of "IMO's", without disagreeing with another's IMO.
 

Steve

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Agree. My objections as many here know are always about “right and wrong“ approaches.
 

karlo

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Agree. My objections as many here know are always about “right and wrong“ approaches.
Yup. Trying to explain to someone that one see's things a different way, and explain why, is quite different than saying another is wrong. Thinking about this a little more, it's more than just getting (falling?) into right and wrongs. I think 'teaching' is best avoided. Answering a question, sure! I have greatly benefited from answers I have gotten here. Teaching is very different. I pay for a course, or I register for a webinar, and I open myself up to teaching. The information is given to me 'unsolicited', solicited only to the point that I chose to attend the class. At some point, and I am not sure where, perhaps Geepers and Razie should have gone private in their discussion. Anyway, I think it's good to explore this and determine preventative actions that each of us can take. (Our company is down for a Quality Systems day. I've got my Quality and Continuous Improvement hat on.) :)
 

François Pugh

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Religious zeal is characterized by five things.

1. absolute certainty about the truth
.....that the truth has been revealed, and that it is important to know this truth

2. a specific document(s) reveals this truth
.....the truth is available to anyone who will avail themselves of the document(s)
.....the document(s) proclaims that it contains the absolute truth, and all of it
.....the document(s) usually is generated by one person who finds the truth and wants to deliver it to others
.....truth-knowers learn to understand and apply the truth from teachers who teach the truth as revealed in the document(s).

3. us vs them mentality
.....the truth-knowers know and recognize each other; they may have an organization and a name
.....they stick together, and often protect themselves from contamination by outsiders by staying away from those who don't know the truth
.....they know and recognize the non-truth-knowers as outsiders, sometimes even as the enemy
.....truth-knowers often work to convert non-truth-knowers, but they must be careful to not fall under their influence as they make contact

4. all-or-nothing commitment to the truth as revealed
.....to be a member of the truth-knowers, one needs to commit to and affirm all that is in the truth-revealing document(s)
.....no questioning of details or exceptions is allowed; one cannot pick and choose what to affirm

5. dire consequences for those who do not know and cling to the truth
.....dire consequences come to those who have never known the truth
.....dire consequences come to those who have encountered the truth but choose to question the absoluteness or the completeness of the truth as revealed in the document(s) and taught by the truth-knowers
.....these dire consequences also come to those who once affirmed the truth but choose to leave the fold

I came up with this list from a book on Christian fundamentalism that I was reading a few years back. I happened to be reading this book when I took a certain week-long ski camp at A-Basin and encountered serious "religious zeal" expressed by participants and promoted by its leader. It appeared to me that the fundamentalists in the book and the campers at A-Basin were acting alike. So I paraphrased what I was reading in the book in more general terms to see if it applied to the people at the camp.

It did.
LOL,
You just reminded me of the moment when I realized I didn't belong on a certain web site; I had recognized a kindred speed-freak spirit and had the audacity to suggest he compromise on his choice of ski and although it wouldn't teach him as well, a ski with a slightly longer than SL would be a good choice for him. That was quickly shot down as sacrilege, and it was pointed out the the site was for dedicated followers who would never suggest such a thing.

There is one more point, more specifically to do with cults, but cults have plenty of religious zeal. The truth is never fully explained by the teacher to the student. There has to be mystery and lots left to learn that keeps the student coming back to the knower(s) of the truth to learn.

The points work for a lot of religions too (including my own). Well written :thumb:!

P.S. It is no surprise that a race coach and he who shall not be named have a lot in common in their approach. After all he was a SL racer and the physics of skiing do not change just because someone has formed a cult incorporating much of it, er I mean formed teaching school.
 
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razie

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Just to note that we're on page 15. A new couple of fresh threads are probably in order if anyone wants to continue technical discussions on the few subjects meshed here, without the baggage... I'll be cooling off by the pool, if anyone is asking...
 

geepers

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Self-moderating...

club-voyage-sorgun.jpg
 

geepers

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Now we've had a cool down period will attempt to get to some sort of result. Plus do not want to be seen as promoting a secret cult.

Have learnt two methods of redirecting the skis based on femur rotation. Both involve doing the bulk of the rotation while the ski is (mostly) flat - once the ski is on edge then it is more difficult to redirect.

The 1st method is well known - an upward move perpendicular to the pitch and perform the redirection when the skis are flat and unweighted.

The 2nd method may be less familiar. Stand on the skis. Make sure the heels are firmly anchored and flex the ankles for light contact between the shins and the front of the boots. Use the TA muscles to lift the toes so that weight is supported by the skeleton acting through the heels. (Toes lifting is not required continuously but is helpful at first.) Maintain shin contact as a reference for fore/aft balance. In this position the skis can be redirected by pivoting around the heels when flat on the snow. The tips can be readily pivoted side to side. This 2nd method does not require an upward movement of the CoM and the knees may be flexed.

In either method once the skis are redirected across the direction of travel by the required amount there will be separation, a steering angle and angular momemtum to be managed for the rest of the turn as usual.

The 2nd method is very useful for redirecting the skis at the top of the turn in drills such as slippy-grippy.
 

Loki1

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Question. Do you feel it is easier to rotate the femurs with pressure on the heels or ball of the foot?
 

Steve

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This is a very good video really showing how a lemur rotates.
 

karlo

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Question. Do you feel it is easier to rotate the femurs with pressure on the heels or ball of the foot?
If knees are bent, not much difference.
But, the max rotation is at transition, where we are weightless. So, what matter is it whether we are “on” balls of feet at beginning of new turn or more “on” the heel at the end of last turn?
 
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LiquidFeet

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Question. Do you feel it is easier to rotate the femurs with pressure on the heels or ball of the foot?
I tend to rotate the skis in a flat 360º spin both ways. To point skis uphill, I rotate from the tips, with tails moving across the snow. To point them downhill, I rotate from the tails, with tips moving across the snow.

But rotating the skis is not Loki's question. He's asking about rotating the femurs. My answer: It doesn't matter how the skis or the feet are weighted. Rotating the femurs does not imply that the skis are being rotated. It means that separation is happening at the head of the femur/hip socket.
 
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geepers

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But rotating the skis is not Loki's question. He's asking about rotating the femurs. My answer: It doesn't matter how the skis are weighted. Rotating the femurs does not imply that the skis are being rotated. It means that separation is happening at the head of the femur/hip socket.

Fair enough. Although the post above @Loki1 question was about redirecting the skis so easy assumption to jump to...
 

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