• For more information on how to avoid pop-up ads and still support SkiTalk click HERE.

What is “Edging”?

Mike King

AKA Habacomike
Instructor
Joined
Nov 13, 2015
Posts
3,392
Location
Louisville CO/Aspen Snowmass
This webinar just blew my mind. Tom Gellie says for years he believed that leg steering was an important skill but that his understanding has evolved. He claims there are three ways to turn the ski: bend it by standing exactly in the center, use torque to drift the tails around a path that is wider than the tips by moving the pivot point forward, or push the tails to skid the tails into a path that is wider than the path of the tips. Rotating the legs simply digs the tips into the snow and moves the pivot point forward.


Mike
 

Steve

SkiMangoJazz
Pass Pulled
Joined
Nov 13, 2015
Posts
2,338
Are you max_501 reincarnated?
 

geepers

Skiing the powder
Skier
Joined
May 12, 2018
Posts
4,298
Location
Wanaka, New Zealand
(look at the hip/femur and there is very little rotation - pretty square, skiing without femur rotation, is that good or bad?) :


Others relax and allow the femur to turn, turned by the engaged ski, legs long or short:



or


I'm not sure your comparisons here are valid. You seem to be basing the claim of "square" skiing in the 1st vid on the thumbnail pic. Watching turns throughout the vid it's clear he has upper and lower body separation and is countering the inside body against the outer - watch the direction of the inside ski and where the inside knee points as the turn progresses. The overhead sequence at 0:40 show that pelvis and shoulders are facing to the outside of the turn. The shots from behind also show it.

Also the Section 8 guy is doing predominatly long turns whereas the other two vids are showing short turns. We'd expect to see the upper body turn more in long turns than short turns See where the Section 8 guy is facing in the brief short turn sequence at 0:37.

There is a brief sequence in the Lorenz vid where he's doing long turns and exhibiting more separation and counter. The question is - how much is needed? Lorenz is skiing higher performance for sure. And he's about 2 decades younger.

The last vid is great skiing. Getting great performance. Is it a suitable model for the average ski school student?
 

geepers

Skiing the powder
Skier
Joined
May 12, 2018
Posts
4,298
Location
Wanaka, New Zealand
This webinar just blew my mind. Tom Gellie says for years he believed that leg steering was an important skill but that his understanding has evolved. He claims there are three ways to turn the ski: bend it by standing exactly in the center, use torque to drift the tails around a path that is wider than the tips by moving the pivot point forward, or push the tails to skid the tails into a path that is wider than the path of the tips. Rotating the legs simply digs the tips into the snow and moves the pivot point forward.


Mike

Have to re-watch that one. Did not pick up on that. He doesn't condemn it in the pivot slip drill-iner so maybe it's a context thing as that vid relates to carving/edging. Puzzling.
 

Steve

SkiMangoJazz
Pass Pulled
Joined
Nov 13, 2015
Posts
2,338
Uhh... was he posting here?

Why you picking on me? It's not my fault it doesn't work, that's Tom's fault... I thought it works but I forgot you have to hop first and contradict loki1 by floating in open chain mode before twisting the skis. Duh!
:geek:

At some point the conversation becomes an almost religious zeal for a certain teaching school. That's what Max did years ago. Quite effectively. Always polite. Never giving up on hammering HH's concepts over and over. Eventually he was banned. You're not at the level of pushiness that he was, but it's starting to feel that way a little.
 

François Pugh

Skiing the powder
Skier
Joined
Nov 17, 2015
Posts
7,684
Location
Great White North (Eastern side currently)
It's more complicated than some folk think it is. There are two planes of rotation, the plane of the ski surface and the plane of the snow surface; they are only the same plane when the ski is flat to the snow. Torque about an axis perpendicular to the snow to rotate the skis in that plane, pressuring the tips and bending the ski and/or sliding them out is not quite the same as torque about an axis perpendicular to the skis that makes the skis dig in or lessen their grip on the snow, but they are related. Fore-aft balance from a direction of net force instead of from a direction of gravity perspective differs also.

:decisions:Aside: it seems to me there are a lot of folk here who are heavily invested in various particular belief systems, and after years of training building on their first taught fundamentals of those system cannot think outside the parameters defined by their particular system. Gore their sacred cows at your peril. You will have a very hard time convincing them to look at it from a different perspective, instead you will only cause them to dig in and staunchly defend the primary tenets of their system.
 

Uke

Who am I now
Skier
Joined
Jan 9, 2016
Posts
249
Location
ut
Just to make things interesting.

Because of the differing way the ski encounters the snow surface along its length there is a longitudinal torque placed on the ski. In other words I don't have to pivot/steer the ski using my feet and legs, I just allow the ski to pivot/steer my feet and legs.

uke
 

Steve

SkiMangoJazz
Pass Pulled
Joined
Nov 13, 2015
Posts
2,338
Peace out.
 

geepers

Skiing the powder
Skier
Joined
May 12, 2018
Posts
4,298
Location
Wanaka, New Zealand
This webinar just blew my mind. Tom Gellie says for years he believed that leg steering was an important skill but that his understanding has evolved. He claims there are three ways to turn the ski: bend it by standing exactly in the center, use torque to drift the tails around a path that is wider than the tips by moving the pivot point forward, or push the tails to skid the tails into a path that is wider than the path of the tips. Rotating the legs simply digs the tips into the snow and moves the pivot point forward.


Mike

Now had a chanced to look at that vid and understand why I didn't react much. I don't hear it quite the same way.

It's in the section on steered turns:​
The 1st relevant bit (about 6 minutes) is the description of terms and the photo of MH with an edged skis on the race ice - wouldn't be able to pull (steer) the tips around. Too much resistance.​
At 07:56 he discusses the only 3 ways for radius control: 1. Pivot it 2. Bend it; 3. A blend of both.​
This leads on to a discussion on pivoting - torque is happening and the longer the lever arm the less force required. Use a longer spanner to loosen a tough nut.​
The next bit then comes about 19 minutes in when the Canadian instructor asks a question referring to Canada: "... creating torque by rotating the femur in the hip socket - not what you are doing?"​
Tom replies: "I'm not. I used to think that's what I was doing. What I'm trying to do here is give you guys another perspective, right. Being able to turn the legs sort of independently is a good skill. But it's not that hard to do in your living room so why is it difficult to teach a skier to do that? Why are they not doing that? This is where I'm coming from - why is that not working? It's a very simple thing to do . It's got to come down to some type of resistance. Things are not set up that way."​
(He now uses a longer lever by going front side heavy to create a pivot point towards the tips and a displacement of the tails.)​
He's spot on that femur rotation for a straight leg is not a powerful lever. Screwdriver, not ratchet spanner. Which is why the skis need to be (mostly) flat or tips free to move side to side like on the crest of a bump.

But he's not saying it's impossible ("... a good skill...") and he discusses it further in the pivot slip drill-inar. Besides there's vids of skiers rotating their skis in this way.

I think this is one of those things that could be quickly dealt with on snow. Could try the moves CSIA teach (there's a couple of different ways - one a perpendicular move and the other can be done with the knee flexed), try TG's approach and work out which works best.

My view there are pros and cons to each.
 

geepers

Skiing the powder
Skier
Joined
May 12, 2018
Posts
4,298
Location
Wanaka, New Zealand
:decisions:Aside: it seems to me there are a lot of folk here who are heavily invested in various particular belief systems, and after years of training building on their first taught fundamentals of those system cannot think outside the parameters defined by their particular system. Gore their sacred cows at your peril. You will have a very hard time convincing them to look at it from a different perspective, instead you will only cause them to dig in and staunchly defend the primary tenets of their system.

Yep - although it's easier to see in others than ourselves. The delicate subject of how to tighten a turn springs to mind.:beercheer:
 

geepers

Skiing the powder
Skier
Joined
May 12, 2018
Posts
4,298
Location
Wanaka, New Zealand
At some point the conversation becomes an almost religious zeal for a certain teaching school. That's what Max did years ago. Quite effectively. Always polite. Never giving up on hammering HH's concepts over and over. Eventually he was banned. You're not at the level of pushiness that he was, but it's starting to feel that way a little.
:duck:
 

razie

Sir Shiftsalot
Skier
SkiTalk Supporter
Joined
Jan 18, 2016
Posts
1,619
Location
Ontario
Yeah - to summarize the quick road south:
@geepers keeps pushing CSIA steering from the femur.
I explain why there's a lot more to skiing than that. No technical argument.
@Steve pushes some "active rotary" without details
I explain why there's a lot more to skiing than that. No technical argument.
@Mike King puts up a webinar from TomG saying steering from the femur and active rotary is not what he does and doesn't work.
@Steve runs out of arguments and accuses me of pushing some religion with religious zeal.

Makes complete sense, doesn't it? That's another great summer thread wrap.

p.s. I thought the religious zeal is that based not on science, but on obnoxious repetition of some myths handed down from the high priests of that church...?
 
Last edited:

LiquidFeet

instructor
Instructor
Joined
Nov 12, 2015
Posts
6,725
Location
New England
Religious zeal is characterized by five things.

1. absolute certainty about the truth
.....that the truth has been revealed, and that it is important to know this truth

2. a specific document(s) reveals this truth
.....the truth is available to anyone who will avail themselves of the document(s)
.....the document(s) proclaims that it contains the absolute truth, and all of it
.....the document(s) usually is generated by one person who finds the truth and wants to deliver it to others
.....truth-knowers learn to understand and apply the truth from teachers who teach the truth as revealed in the document(s).

3. us vs them mentality
.....the truth-knowers know and recognize each other; they may have an organization and a name
.....they stick together, and often protect themselves from contamination by outsiders by staying away from those who don't know the truth
.....they know and recognize the non-truth-knowers as outsiders, sometimes even as the enemy
.....truth-knowers often work to convert non-truth-knowers, but they must be careful to not fall under their influence as they make contact

4. all-or-nothing commitment to the truth as revealed
.....to be a member of the truth-knowers, one needs to commit to and affirm all that is in the truth-revealing document(s)
.....no questioning of details or exceptions is allowed; one cannot pick and choose what to affirm

5. dire consequences for those who do not know and cling to the truth
.....dire consequences come to those who have never known the truth
.....dire consequences come to those who have encountered the truth but choose to question the absoluteness or the completeness of the truth as revealed in the document(s) and taught by the truth-knowers
.....these dire consequences also come to those who once affirmed the truth but choose to leave the fold

I came up with this list from a book on Christian fundamentalism that I was reading a few years back. I happened to be reading this book when I took a certain week-long ski camp at A-Basin and encountered serious "religious zeal" expressed by participants and promoted by its leader. It appeared to me that the fundamentalists in the book and the campers at A-Basin were acting alike. So I paraphrased what I was reading in the book in more general terms to see if it applied to the people at the camp.

It did.
 
Last edited:

Steve

SkiMangoJazz
Pass Pulled
Joined
Nov 13, 2015
Posts
2,338
razie, I am not taking the bait here. The complete rejection of active rotary is a known basic part of P&T$ teaching. We're not allowed to even discuss that school of teaching on Pugski, it's specifically banned, nor can we use the founder's name. I'm not going down that road.

What I'm commenting on is your advocating for that school, without specifically mentioning it. It is the holy wars here on epic, er. Pugski. I won't engage, only observe and comment.
 

razie

Sir Shiftsalot
Skier
SkiTalk Supporter
Joined
Jan 18, 2016
Posts
1,619
Location
Ontario
razie, I am not taking the bait here. The complete rejection of active rotary is a known basic part of P&T$ teaching. We're not allowed to even discuss that school of teaching on Pugski, it's specifically banned, nor can we use the founder's name. I'm not going down that road.

What I'm commenting on is your advocating for that school, without specifically mentioning it. It is the holy wars here on epic, er. Pugski. I won't engage, only observe and comment.

:nono:

accuse and threaten is not observe and comment:

Eventually he was banned. You're not at the level of pushiness that he was, but it's starting to feel that way a little.
 
Last edited:

Steve

SkiMangoJazz
Pass Pulled
Joined
Nov 13, 2015
Posts
2,338
Threaten?

My recent post was "Peace out."
 

Sponsor

Staff online

Top