Went to another boot fitter, cash in hand, no luck

[BeetleJuice]

I walked into a very reputable shop today, the one I have had my eye on and been talking about, cash in hand, ready to buy Lange ZB 27.5, but they told me they couldn't guarantee the fit for the $800 price.. I feel like no one wants to spend the time and grind/stretch the smaller boot for me. Isn't that the entire purpose of a plug boot? I have only found one shop that recommends sizing down and blowing out the toe area, but they do not carry plugs and will not special order them. The regular 130 consumer boots (Tecnica Mach 1 LV, Doberman GP 130, RS/RX 130) are too soft for me, especially for warm spring days.

I skied yesterday in a 28.5 ZB, which is the boot that most good fitters (including one I talked to today) have recommend for me. They are close, but ultimately a little too big around my super thin ankle. Today I tried them with tongue shims, and/or bon-tec, each separately and then together. With the bon-tec only, I felt a hot spot on the top of my heel. With the tongue shim only, I felt a pressure point on my instep nerve. With both together it was more painful. I don't like trying to fill up space in boots that are too big around my ankle.. I have paid lots of money for this tactic before, probably 3 times now, from separate boot fitters, and always been disappointed with the fit. I will not do this again. This is the boot they recommended. I would have been furious if I had paid $900 for a 28.5 thats too big again. Right out of the box, start filling it with material to take up volume??? I don't think so.

I really like the feel of the 27.5 Lange ZB over the instep nerve/veins, and the length is long enough for my 287mm and 290mm feet.. But I am getting some cut off circulation from them being a vice grip along the sides of the feet. Aren't the sides of the feet the place where it's easiest to make room in a plug? By grinding or stretching? I feel like no-one will take the time to grind a 27.5 plug for me. No-one will listen, everyone just wants to put me into a 28.5 thats too big on day 1. And then I don't enjoy skiing because my foot is moving around in difficult terrain or conditions.

Out of the entire store, no boots are recommended for me, but the ones I already have, and the ones that are slightly too big. I just don't understand. Please don't lock my thread, like the last one, I need help.

 

[mdf]

Those who know my story (see my avatar photo) know that it is ironic for me to talk about boot fitters. But we had a long discussion about this at lunch at Mad River Glen earlier this year.

Boot fitters, even superstar boot fitters, are only human. They have bad days. They sometimes jump to conclusions about customers. Some of the best are burnt out and no longer providing the service that made them famous, especially to unknown walk-ins.

All I can suggest is to try again somewhere else. Or maybe pre-connect by getting a referral through someone here.

 

[BeetleJuice]

I need to see the best of the best, and I'm willing to spend what I have to..

 

[Eric267]

I walked into a very reputable shop today, the one I have had my eye on and been talking about, cash in hand, ready to buy Lange ZB 27.5, but they told me they couldn't guarantee the fit for the $800 price.. I feel like no one wants to spend the time and grind/stretch the smaller boot for me. Isn't that the entire purpose of a plug boot? I have only found one shop that recommends sizing down and blowing out the toe area, but they do not carry plugs and will not special order them. The regular 130 consumer boots (Tecnica Mach 1 LV, Doberman GP 130, RS/RX 130) are too soft for me, especially for warm spring days.

I skied yesterday in a 28.5 ZB, which is the boot that most good fitters (including one I talked to today) have recommend for me. They are close, but ultimately a little too big around my super thin ankle. Today I tried them with tongue shims, and/or bon-tec, each separately and then together. With the bon-tec only, I felt a hot spot on the top of my heel. With the tongue shim only, I felt a pressure point on my instep nerve. With both together it was more painful. I don't like trying to fill up space in boots that are too big around my ankle.. I have paid lots of money for this tactic before, probably 3 times now, from separate boot fitters, and always been disappointed with the fit. I will not do this again. This is the boot they recommended. I would have been furious if I had paid $900 for a 28.5 thats too big again. Right out of the box, start filling it with material to take up volume??? I don't think so.

I really like the feel of the 27.5 Lange ZB over the instep nerve/veins, and the length is long enough for my 287mm and 290mm feet.. But I am getting some cut off circulation from them being a vice grip along the sides of the feet. Aren't the sides of the feet the place where it's easiest to make room in a plug? By grinding or stretching? I feel like no-one will take the time to grind a 27.5 plug for me. No-one will listen, everyone just wants to put me into a 28.5 thats too big on day 1. And then I don't enjoy skiing because my foot is moving around in difficult terrain or conditions.

Out of the entire store, no boots are recommended for me, but the ones I already have, and the ones that are slightly too big. I just don't understand. Please don't lock my thread, like the last one, I need help.

Why not try a intuition Dreamliner in your 28.5. If it's a good shell fit you can just decide if you need a mid or high volume (they come in 3 volumes). I didn't heat mold mine and just skied them in. I did HV and could barely buckle to the first notch at the beginning. After 5-6 days they broke in and fit like a glove. Stock liners are crap! Go see Dylan at willards in Tahoe city. He usually has some in stock to try on. Most shops just carry the power wrap but the Dreamliner is awesome
https://intuitionliners.com/shop/dreamliner/

 

[BeetleJuice]

Why not try a intuition Dreamliner in your 28.5. If it's a good shell fit you can just decide if you need a mid or high volume (they come in 3 volumes). I didn't heat mold mine and just skied them in. I did HV and could barely buckle to the first notch at the beginning. After 5-6 days they broke in and fit like a glove. Stock liners are crap! Go see Dylan at willards in Tahoe city. He usually has some in stock to try on. Most shops just carry the power wrap but the Dreamliner is awesome
https://intuitionliners.com/shop/dreamliner/

Thanks for the recommendation. Some of the boot fitters I have spoke with, said they don't recommend the intuition liners in the stiff plug boot. That the softer liners just don't match up with the stiffer World Cup boots.. What do you guys think about intuitions in race boots?

I am starting to think about adding a BD liner, or zip fit, or Nordica foams, or even Intuition plug wrap to the 28.5. Still though, I really want to get into a 27.5 plug, and blow it out.

 

[Philpug]

The Dreamliner is nice but it is like putting a really good All-Season tire on a race car, which is what a ZB is.

 

[Eric267]

Thanks for the recommendation. Some of the boot fitters I have spoke with, said they don't recommend the intuition liners in the stiff plug boot. That the softer liners just don't match up with the stiffer World Cup boots.. What do you guys think about intuitions in race boots?

I am starting to think about adding a BD liner, or zip fit, or Nordica foams, or even Intuition plug wrap to the 28.5. Still though, I really want to get into a 27.5 plug, and blow it out.

Yeah not sure about putting them into plugs

Have you been by Olympic bootfitters in squaw

 

[BeetleJuice]

The Dreamliner is nice but it is like putting a really good All-Season tire on a race car, which is what a ZB is.

Great analogy. That is what I suspected, thank you for making it clear. I get confused with all this boot stuff, to be honest, being a mere mortal.. I have 4 or 5 days in plugs. I didn't grow up racing, but just am a larger guy and 26 years old. I did this same thing with a Fischer Vacuum plug 4 years ago when I lived in Teton Village, 28.5 was too big, even though its a plug boot and my "measured" size.

I think I know who I need to talk to. Again, I messed up, and need to start looking at this like a boot "doctor visit", and make an appointment with someone highly recommended, for my hard-to-fit foot.

 

[Ken_R]

Great analogy. That is what I suspected, thank you for making it clear. I get confused with all this boot stuff, to be honest, being a mere mortal.. I have 4 or 5 days in plugs. I didn't grow up racing, but just am a larger guy and 26 years old. I did this same thing with a Fischer Vacuum plug 4 years ago when I lived in Teton Village, 28.5 was too big, even though its a plug boot and my "measured" size.

I think I know who I need to talk to. Again, I messed up, and need to start looking at this like a boot "doctor visit", and make an appointment with someone highly recommended, for my hard-to-fit foot.

Have you tried other brands? I would also check out the Atomic Redsters in both 27.5 and 28.5 and the Nordica Doberman in both sizes as well. Order them all online if you cant find them locally and just return the ones that dont fit.

Regrading Bootfitters I have had great results with SBF in Vail.

Regarding Liners I really like my heat molded Intuition Pro Tongue liners. Laced up they are superb. The foam is pretty high density and it takes up more space in the ankle and calf area. They are quite warm and add some stiffness.

 

[BeetleJuice]

Yeah not sure about putting them into plugs

Have you been by Olympic bootfitters in squaw

I have been by there. I like it. I might stop in there tomorrow. I have been to most places in Jackson, Big Sky, Bozeman, Denver, Vail, Avon, Dillon/Breck, Tahoe. I feel like at this point I'm everybody's worst nightmare. I have boot fitter "issues", and am afraid to break the ice haha, afraid to be let down again. I think ultimately, I'd be confident with just about anyone who will special order a 27.5 Lange ZB, and work with me to get it to fit.

Have you tried other brands? I would also check out the Atomic Redsters in both 27.5 and 28.5 and the Nordica Doberman in both sizes as well. Order them all online if you cant find them locally and just return the ones that dont fit.

Regrading Bootfitters I have had great results with SBF in Vail.

Regarding Liners I really like my heat molded Intuition Pro Tongue liners. Laced up they are superb. The foam is pretty high density and it takes up more space in the ankle and calf area. They are quite warm and add some stiffness.

I have been to SBF, twice. I like that place a lot. The main guy is one of the best in the business right? He was the first to recognize how instep volume measurements can match overall foot length measurements? I'm always moving around, and never have actually bought a boot from them, just visited. And now I haven't been back to Colorado in over a year, almost two.

I have been starting to think about all the other plugs, but am afraid of falling into never never land. Raptor B2s, Nordica, Tecnica. Atomic, Dalbello, and other Fischers maybe. Most places don't have them in stock for me to try on, and special ordering is too expensive for me to experiment with. Finding them online, I get super confused on different years and this and that.

 

[James]

How much space do you have behind the heel in your 28 plug and how much was in the store in the 27?

Why exactly did the fitter say they couldn't guarantee it?

 

[BeetleJuice]

How much space do you have behind the heel in your 28 plug and how much was in the store in the 27?

Why exactly did the fitter say they couldn't guarantee it?

I never know exactly how much. I have been to so many different places, whatever someone says is always different. That might be my problem, and why I'm so confused now. I need to find one guy, and go to him the rest of my life, no matter what. As weird as that is, it's that important to me. Yesterday I tried on some 2018 Lange Rx 130 LVs and 2018 Tecnica Mach 1 LVs, at one store, and they told me 1 finger fit, and that that 27.5 was the way to go, and just blow out the toes as needed. I would have bought right then and there if they would just special order a ZB for me and do that! but they won't... At another store, yesterday, not the place I went to today, Head Raptor 140 28.5 is 1-finger fit, and that THAT was the way to go, over 27.5 and work on toes. It's always different.

Looking at my 28.5 ZB's shell fit now, I can't quite turn my hand sideways enough myself, to accurately get a measurement. I don't have any dowels, but maybe I can find some sharpies or something. As you can probably tell, I'm a little young and unorganized. If I had to estimate, I'd say 1.75 finger fit in the 28.5 ZB's, length-wise. Which is too long for me. I find Lange to usually run long though, or well all the plugs and also the 2012-2017 RX/RS LV..2018 Lange RS/RX changed shape in the toe box. For me at least, now I can't size down as easily. The older 27.5 Lange RS 130 fit me very well. The new 2018 version, not so much. The new dual injected plastic messed with the fit for me unfortunately. I have been trying to track down some 2015/2016/2017 RS 130/140, but have no luck finding 27.5. Maybe the 2013-2017 Rossi World Cup SI 130, or Rossi Experience SI 130 boots would work, with a custom liner, but I find the stock liner on the Rossis to be much worse than the langes (in durability, and feel/fit), and I get worse pressure points from weird plastic placement on the Rossis.

The fitter I saw today said they couldn't guarantee 27.5 plug because my instep measurement is 28cm. I swear, I cannot ski in 28s. Plug or LV consumer boots, I get too much movement to ski the way I want to. Rarely do I find a fitter that will size me down to a 27.5 and blow out the toes, and maybe grind the bootboard down 1mm. Usually they'd much rather get me into a 28.5 with a custom liner, the easy way out. I don't like the latter method, want to try the former..

Funny thing is, as tight as the 27.5 ZBs are around the sides of my foot, length-wise and on the instep they're absolutely perfect for my foot. I feel like the tecnicas/nordicas and other brand boots are shorter than the 27.5 Salomon/Langes on the inside. BSL mm's don't matter to me as much as internal feel. Whether the toe box is v shaped, or more rounded out maybe? Maybe I didn't convey that well enough today, to the boot fitter I saw?

I'm honestly starting to go a little crazy about this, and feel like if I miss a specific detail, the fit I'm after goes out the window. So many details to so many different boots. I am willing to just spend the extra couple hundred dollars at this point, to whoever is the best at what they do, and will help me out in a 27.5 plug.

 

[James]

You need to get some concrete info.
What does yoor foot measure on a Brannock device? -Boot shop.

Shell fit tour current boots. Forget fingers. Use a flaslight and estimate. Or take objects- sharpie case, pencil, pen, etc. you can measure these objects using an adjustable wrench and a ruler. The exact numbers are really for your benefit and communication.

Why exactly did the shop not want to put you in the 27? What did they say? Not some lengthy story, just the what was said.

What brand model did the fitter recommend?

 

[fatbob]

Don't take this the wrong way but if I'm a bootfitter who doesn't know you I'm reading quite a lot of ego into what you are saying - you simply must have a plug boot , you are pre decided on what model and size it must be. In such circumstances I can see bfs saying "this guy is going to be too much hard work to be worth my while", particularly if you are a mission to squeeze into a size that objective measurements say is too small.

 

[François Pugh]

Don't give up!

A couple of points:
First of all I'm not a boot fitter, nor a boot fitters son. All I have is anecdotal experience and a lot of hear-say.

It sounds like you want to go down 1/2 a size due to problems with width around your heel, but going down to the size that fits your heel would make the boot too short.

I have heard from @Philpug that although boot shells come with full and half sizes marked on them, the actual size of the shells only varies by one full size. I can't remember if the 1/2 size is the same as the lower full size or the higher full size; I think it's the lower one, but no matter.

It could just be possible that the small size plug would have not enough left of it ground to make it long enough, or the plastic would be too week if stretched too far.

I have a really old style of "posted" foot bed in my boots (Superfoot Kork with lots of real cork in them - no longer made that way). All the best most knowledgeable folk tell me this is bad, and that modern footbeds that allow more movement are better. I guess I'm an old dog who doesn't want to hear about new tricks; I like my old footbeds better. More importantly a foot supported by a foot bed will take up less length.

In my experience a triple stacked (that means instead of mixing two cans of chemicals to make the expanding foam that fills the pouches in the custom foam liner they used six cans) custom foamed liner combined with a good custom footbed will hold the heel down securely for a long long time. The triple stacked liners made my boots much much stiffer than they were with the stock liner.

I suspect that if you get the shell in the correct length and even just a double stacked custom foam liner (the old stuff that sets hard, not this new-fangled silica that continues to flow) you will find the fit excellent.

It could be that is what you need (custom foamed liner with extra foam, good custom footbed, top of the line race boot), but that costs more than $800. If so, pay the man.

 

[Brian Finch]

Ya got nothing on crazy......... just wait till you have molds of your own feet to do your own work.

Seriously- it sounds like you need a local fitter to commit to the process & do weekly adjusts not just walking in with $$$.

 

[Tony S]

Don't take this the wrong way but if I'm a bootfitter who doesn't know you I'm reading quite a lot of ego into what you are saying - you simply must have a plug boot , you are pre decided on what model and size it must be. In such circumstances I can see bfs saying "this guy is going to be too much hard work to be worth my while", particularly if you are a mission to squeeze into a size that objective measurements say is too small.

This times three.

For better or worse, the reality is that even though you are the "customer", and you have the money, it's very much a two-way street. A significant amount of humility and diplomacy is required on the part of the "fittee" before the fitter is going to really work for you. It takes time, effort, and honest (sometimes unflattering) self-assessment to learn how to be a "fittee." A six-pack for shop staff along the way won't hurt, when you come back to report good progress but a new hotspot.

You gotta slow down, sit down at the table, unbutton your collar, and let the chef and the sommelier talk you through what is going to make you the most happy. Let them drive the conversation. Listen more than you talk. Then, with great patience, let them do their jobs. Play with your phone. Eat a piece of bread. Have a glass of champagne. Send a photo back home. The last thing you want to do is come in with a whole long list of high-profile dishes and wines you have opinions about. They don't care. They live this stuff. You're not going to tell them much they don't already know, except insofar as how you reacted to certain things. Let them set you up. Leave them a good tip.

When you come back the next time, tell them how good x was and what you didn't like about y. Let them try again. Leave them a good tip again. Form a relationship.

 

[Philpug]

We have said over and over "You don't pick the boot, the boot picks you.." On the surface, it looks like Beetle is trying to pick the boot by demanding a 27.5 ZB but I am not sure that is the case, I think he has been through enough that he knows what will fit his foot and realizes that it will take work. As far as him going into the last shop and basically saying "Shut up and take my money" and butting heads with the last fitter, shouldn't have happened and his frustration and the fitters arrogance collided. But, we are also seeing a pattern hwith him being to numerous shops and no one seeming to want to put him in a 27.5 ZB which also lends me to believe that while he is picking that boot, that boot is not picking him and that it is really not the right boot. I have no problem with Beetle expecting to be in a plug, not so much that it is a plug but it is the lowest volume option. He is also expecting the boot to need some work and I also rarely ever heard "we can't guarantee the fit" being said when it comes to a boot like this..especially without a solid explaination.

 

[markojp]

I need to see the best of the best, and I'm willing to spend what I have to..

Jules Mills in Chamonix if you're going to throw (travel) money at the problem.

zB order... They 'won't' order it, or it just isn't available this time of year? My money's on the latter?

 

[markojp]

Don't give up!

A couple of points:
First of all I'm not a boot fitter, nor a boot fitters son. All I have is anecdotal experience and a lot of hear-say.

It sounds like you want to go down 1/2 a size due to problems with width around your heel, but going down to the size that fits your heel would make the boot too short.

I have heard from @Philpug that although boot shells come with full and half sizes marked on them, the actual size of the shells only varies by one full size. I can't remember if the 1/2 size is the same as the lower full size or the higher full size; I think it's the lower one, but no matter.

It could just be possible that the small size plug would have not enough left of it ground to make it long enough, or the plastic would be too week if stretched too far.

I have a really old style of "posted" foot bed in my boots (Superfoot Kork with lots of real cork in them - no longer made that way). All the best most knowledgeable folk tell me this is bad, and that modern footbeds that allow more movement are better. I guess I'm an old dog who doesn't want to hear about new tricks; I like my old footbeds better. More importantly a foot supported by a foot bed will take up less length.

In my experience a triple stacked (that means instead of mixing two cans of chemicals to make the expanding foam that fills the pouches in the custom foam liner they used six cans) custom foamed liner combined with a good custom footbed will hold the heel down securely for a long long time. The triple stacked liners made my boots much much stiffer than they were with the stock liner.

I suspect that if you get the shell in the correct length and even just a double stacked custom foam liner (the old stuff that sets hard, not this new-fangled silica that continues to flow) you will find the fit excellent.

It could be that is what you need (custom foamed liner with extra foam, good custom footbed, top of the line race boot), but that costs more than $800. If so, pay the man.

There's a good reason cork super feet are gone (not to mention that the unlikelihood of a 15-20 y.o. Foot bed is still a valid fit.. feet change over time) and that rock hard injectable foams aren't used any more. Francois, you really need to stop talking about unavailable and decades old gear.