Maybe experiment with delaying your pole touch to coincide with when you come on to the new edges while working to break the existing pattern and create a new flow.
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Weight on outside ski or inside ski?
- Thread starter Angel Spear
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Maybe experiment with delaying your pole touch to coincide with when you come on to the new edges while working to break the existing pattern and create a new flow.
If you are in the habit of tipping your old outside new inside ski onto its little toe edge to start the new turn, and you stop and go, say to avoid a skier ahead who attempted to collide with you, you may find yourself down hill from that edge and tripping over it
. From a stop or near stop, instead, what you need to do is untip the skis just enough to initiate a sideslip/falling leaf motion until you have enough forward momentum to align the forces on the correct side of the edge and not trip, then tip.
Up and over it drill makes sense; shift force to the uphill ski. What does not make sense is having someone do this drill before they are ready for it.
. From a stop or near stop, instead, what you need to do is untip the skis just enough to initiate a sideslip/falling leaf motion until you have enough forward momentum to align the forces on the correct side of the edge and not trip, then tip.Up and over it drill makes sense; shift force to the uphill ski. What does not make sense is having someone do this drill before they are ready for it.
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Or eliminate the pole touch completely until the feet are doing what you want them to do. Pole use commonly becomes a trigger cue for the rest of your muscle memory, and continued application can make altering that pattern all but impossible.
I managed to get out to my local hill yesterday. Someone posted the advice about being aft and uphill causing the edge to catch and I found that to definitely be true. If I focused on driving towards the next apex and letting my COM fall down the hill I was able to make just about as short a turn as I wanted. I didn't try out the steepest run though as I think I need to practice getting over the falling sensation. I couldn't get the pivot slips to happen though. I had trouble getting the skis to swing around with out accidentally getting the outside ski on the inside edge and it'd run away from me so I should probably take a lesson. All the advice definitely helped though!
When learning pivot slips, work on keeping both feet directly under you. Don't let them get downhill of your body, nor out to the side. Your body weight should stay between your feet uphill-downhill-wise, and between your feet fore-aft-wise (there should be tip lead). That way the edges should be easy to control.
A steep-ish icy groomer is the best place to learn pivot slips, not low pitch terrain with natural snow. You don't need soft snow grabbing your skis. Don't give up!
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Re pivot slips, really master simple sideslips first. The great majority of skiers need to improve sideslip skills. Then hockey stops. Really good ones, where the feet don't deviate from traveling straight down the hill. Pivot slips are a step up, considered a fairly advanced exercise.
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If you cant sideslip with fore and aft pressure control a subtle steering to go back and forth across the hill, pivot slips will never happen..
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The problem with hockey stops is they involve unweighting before the pivot. If you get the unweighting stuck in your movement pattern, it will be difficult to get rid of it to do pivot slips.
I think the best way to avoid any tip crossing or any behavioral type issues with the inside ski, at least for for “advanced” skiers, is to engage the inside ski minimally. When the inside ski is not engaged in the carving process from putting 100% to the outside, it becomes a useless appendage, floating and bouncing around on its own without any significant purpose or intent. However, when you “close the inside chain” and engage the inside ski with a touch of pressure, it will move and track with the outside ski and carve along side it resulting in leaving those parallel rail tracks you see left behind good skiers. Slight inside pressure is an “engaged” ski that is ready to take over at any point in the turn where a lifted and disengaged inside ski must be lowered and engaged before anything can be done with it which is slow for racers and inefficient for freeskiers at upper levels. A slightly engaged inside ski gives more feedback to the skier as to what is happening as well as more control to what happens with it. However, because the inside ski only gets about 10 - 25% of the overall load depending on which turn phase, it is often seen off the ground because the “lighter” ski deflects often throughout the turn which is often caught on a millisecond still frame photo which is then easily misinterpreted as something else. This is why you cannot perform a “movement” analysis on a still frame which is, unfortunately, a regular and convenient practice by some in the industry.
Because we see a lot more overlapping pressure from the inside and outside skis due to the more “streaming” and less “shifty” in movements and aesthetics of modern technical skiing, instead of saying the inside and outside ski, the explanations themselves become overlapping and we know often refer to them as the “new” inside ski, “old” inside ski, “new” outside ski and “old” outside ski. Disincluding the inside ski as part of the turning process by transferring 100% of your pressure, weight, load from ski to ski is slower, more laborious and less effective to the speedy carving we seek. If you are an intermediate skier, then you should probably be working on balancing an entire weight shift before you advance to expert skiing using both skis that are working together otherwise a reliance on any inside pressure is going to result in falling to the inside. Typically, only skiers that have the skill to balance the entire turn on either the inside ski or outside ski alone on command are the ones who have control of inside/outside pressure distribution in a manner that represents the progressively building forces of the turn. 100% weight shift does not represent the progressive building and dissipation of forces throughout the turn. 100% weight shift provides a “shifty” aesthetic where a progressive and overlapping weight shift provides the more “streaming” aesthetic we see from the skiers we wish to emulate.
These pics below is what a typical track the carving racers above leave behind them. You can see how the inside ski is engaged, bent and carving in order to make that inside mark. Many skiers that do not pressure the inside ski suffer from a divergent inside ski that will not produce this type of track. Though, a weak, divergent and tip leading inside ski can leave a parallel inside mark but still not contribute to the forces of the turn with any significance. As long as you make sure the dominant pressure goes to the outside, inside ski use is very efficient and effective skiing. If a skier has a technique based on having completely unweighted inside ski, they are forced to use accessory motor patterns such as inside pullback to keep it in check. Skiers that incorporate the inside ski have a foot that “stays” back, isn’t suffering from “foot squirrt” and not requiring that extra push and pull within every turn.
The perspective of a recent intermediate/emerging expert is often going to be 100% outside pressure because that is what is currently drilled into their head and, unfortunately, often remains their final dogma as their foot skill development stops there. It is old dogma at that. Ss if we still ski like Ingemar Stenmark and Phil Mahre picking up the inside ski. The developmental sequence is that a skier needs to learn 100% outside weight, balance, pressure, load (whichever term floats your boat) and then 100% inside ski balance before they can learn to perform an overlapping and progressive weight shift.
Some people will argue about things like this on social media where it is easy to blur the truth and hide a shallow background so I find it is best to refer to top level instructors and coaches with significant experience. As well, no need to take this assertion from just me. Here is a great article about inside ski use from Greg Gurshman, a highly experienced, well known and respected race coach throughout the industry: http://youcanski.com/en/use-of-the-inside-ski-in-modern-race-turns
“Greg Gurshman spent almost 2 decades of his life coaching skiing. He coached racers all over the world, including Austria, US and Canada. His coaching experience covers it all, from junior racers, to working with the national teams, side by side with some of the best coaches in Europe and North America. He trained many outstanding racers who won medals at World Cup and World Championships. Perhaps more importantly, he also coached athletes who were perceived by others as the ones with no real potential in the sport, and at times was able to get them to produce some outstanding results.”
Below, we see still frames of the venerable Marcel Hirscher that represents significant use of the inside ski. Many of his turns are started with the inside ski and often finished on the inside ski due to his skill set. While I remain firm that still frames cannot be used for an effective movement analysis, they do prove that, at some point in the turn, that there was purposeful inside pressure used. While today, a ski caught off the snow in a still frame is almost always due to a small unintended deflection or, micro deflection, even during significant inside ski pressure, something common in ski racing, actual inside ski pressure applied indicates a more purposeful input and outcome. As a matter of fact, a cursory Google image search yields ten times more photos of Hirscher with the inside ski in contact engagement with the ground than off the ground. When a skier has the inside ski, or any ski off the ground, it is always due to an unabsorbed ski deflection and is never purposeful like it was back in the days of Stenmark and Maher.
Because we see a lot more overlapping pressure from the inside and outside skis due to the more “streaming” and less “shifty” in movements and aesthetics of modern technical skiing, instead of saying the inside and outside ski, the explanations themselves become overlapping and we know often refer to them as the “new” inside ski, “old” inside ski, “new” outside ski and “old” outside ski. Disincluding the inside ski as part of the turning process by transferring 100% of your pressure, weight, load from ski to ski is slower, more laborious and less effective to the speedy carving we seek. If you are an intermediate skier, then you should probably be working on balancing an entire weight shift before you advance to expert skiing using both skis that are working together otherwise a reliance on any inside pressure is going to result in falling to the inside. Typically, only skiers that have the skill to balance the entire turn on either the inside ski or outside ski alone on command are the ones who have control of inside/outside pressure distribution in a manner that represents the progressively building forces of the turn. 100% weight shift does not represent the progressive building and dissipation of forces throughout the turn. 100% weight shift provides a “shifty” aesthetic where a progressive and overlapping weight shift provides the more “streaming” aesthetic we see from the skiers we wish to emulate.
These pics below is what a typical track the carving racers above leave behind them. You can see how the inside ski is engaged, bent and carving in order to make that inside mark. Many skiers that do not pressure the inside ski suffer from a divergent inside ski that will not produce this type of track. Though, a weak, divergent and tip leading inside ski can leave a parallel inside mark but still not contribute to the forces of the turn with any significance. As long as you make sure the dominant pressure goes to the outside, inside ski use is very efficient and effective skiing. If a skier has a technique based on having completely unweighted inside ski, they are forced to use accessory motor patterns such as inside pullback to keep it in check. Skiers that incorporate the inside ski have a foot that “stays” back, isn’t suffering from “foot squirrt” and not requiring that extra push and pull within every turn.
The perspective of a recent intermediate/emerging expert is often going to be 100% outside pressure because that is what is currently drilled into their head and, unfortunately, often remains their final dogma as their foot skill development stops there. It is old dogma at that. Ss if we still ski like Ingemar Stenmark and Phil Mahre picking up the inside ski. The developmental sequence is that a skier needs to learn 100% outside weight, balance, pressure, load (whichever term floats your boat) and then 100% inside ski balance before they can learn to perform an overlapping and progressive weight shift.
Some people will argue about things like this on social media where it is easy to blur the truth and hide a shallow background so I find it is best to refer to top level instructors and coaches with significant experience. As well, no need to take this assertion from just me. Here is a great article about inside ski use from Greg Gurshman, a highly experienced, well known and respected race coach throughout the industry: http://youcanski.com/en/use-of-the-inside-ski-in-modern-race-turns
“Greg Gurshman spent almost 2 decades of his life coaching skiing. He coached racers all over the world, including Austria, US and Canada. His coaching experience covers it all, from junior racers, to working with the national teams, side by side with some of the best coaches in Europe and North America. He trained many outstanding racers who won medals at World Cup and World Championships. Perhaps more importantly, he also coached athletes who were perceived by others as the ones with no real potential in the sport, and at times was able to get them to produce some outstanding results.”
Below, we see still frames of the venerable Marcel Hirscher that represents significant use of the inside ski. Many of his turns are started with the inside ski and often finished on the inside ski due to his skill set. While I remain firm that still frames cannot be used for an effective movement analysis, they do prove that, at some point in the turn, that there was purposeful inside pressure used. While today, a ski caught off the snow in a still frame is almost always due to a small unintended deflection or, micro deflection, even during significant inside ski pressure, something common in ski racing, actual inside ski pressure applied indicates a more purposeful input and outcome. As a matter of fact, a cursory Google image search yields ten times more photos of Hirscher with the inside ski in contact engagement with the ground than off the ground. When a skier has the inside ski, or any ski off the ground, it is always due to an unabsorbed ski deflection and is never purposeful like it was back in the days of Stenmark and Maher.
@Doby Man - here is the conclusion, quoted from GG's article, to make sure we don't blur his thoughts on the matter:
One should hope to ski anywhere near Schlopy and the others... I will not be the one to tell Cuche he can ski better if he reads this forum!
Focusing on weighting the inside ski a certain amount, be it 10%, 23% or whatever, is not relevant. The amount of weight on the inside ski is a result, not an input or a goal in itself. The result of a skier well balanced over the outside ski will be as low as 0% weight on the inside ski - but the result of lifting the inside ski may well be a fall inside if one does not have the required balance and stance! But... you will weight that ski 100% at initiation sometimes when doing a late release or weighted release; you exit 100% on it if you do an early release (a la Ted) etc and it can thus vary as needed inside any particular turn.
I know that some pros coach outcomes, but it's a poor investment in time and energy spent. Because they see that the inside ski is weighted a little sometimes by good skiers, they'll coach that as if it's a thing in itself - but that's not how it should work. We need to coach the inputs that result in good skiing and recognize that the weight on the inside ski is just a side effect. Since Schlopy and all those racers CAN ski without weight on the inside ski, it obviously proves the point that weighting it does nothing to help with divergence or convergence or whatever... and GG makes those points very well in his article.
The only way, In my mind, at the risk of repeating myself, to get value from focusing on the inside ski, other than just balancing on it to improve that skill, is to focus on unweighting it and tipping it - which gives one a lot of benefits, like GG noted above, not just in a race and hard snow, on piste, but building great balance skills etc. GG seems to agree quote: "while perfecting these skills one should pay attention to a proper lift of the inside ski as well as to a correct placing of the ski on the snow and edging it."
cheers, all.
p.s. just to be clear, I am not advocating lifting the inside ski throughout the turn or something like that, except for drills... in fact, I like to keep my tips down when skiing...
If you study the technique of some World Cup racers, you may notice that many of them often lift the inside ski very slightly when entering the turn (at the beginning of phase- I). Undoubtedly, they enter the turn with 100% of weight on the outside ski. This movement helps a racer to avoiding leaning onto the inside ski while aggressively moving inside the arc of a turn. This technique can be seen more often from the racers of an older generation such as Maier, Cuche, Blardone, Raich and Schlopy. These guys were taught to lift the inside ski at the beginning of each turn since they were kids. Now they successfully use this movement in the context of modern technique. By contrast, a younger breed of racers tends to keep both skis in constant contact with the snow. On a moderate to steep pitch this approach can be faster if other things are equal. Generally, this technique is being taught to junior racers all over the world nowadays. However, the approach of seasoned ski racers should not be neglected either, especially on very steep sections of a course. I am convinced that drills involving entering the turn while lifting the inside ski are the base from which one can progress to acquiring the technique of using the inside ski. While perfecting these skills one should pay attention to a proper lift of the inside ski as well as to a correct placing of the ski on the snow and edging it.
One should hope to ski anywhere near Schlopy and the others... I will not be the one to tell Cuche he can ski better if he reads this forum!
Focusing on weighting the inside ski a certain amount, be it 10%, 23% or whatever, is not relevant. The amount of weight on the inside ski is a result, not an input or a goal in itself. The result of a skier well balanced over the outside ski will be as low as 0% weight on the inside ski - but the result of lifting the inside ski may well be a fall inside if one does not have the required balance and stance! But... you will weight that ski 100% at initiation sometimes when doing a late release or weighted release; you exit 100% on it if you do an early release (a la Ted) etc and it can thus vary as needed inside any particular turn.
I know that some pros coach outcomes, but it's a poor investment in time and energy spent. Because they see that the inside ski is weighted a little sometimes by good skiers, they'll coach that as if it's a thing in itself - but that's not how it should work. We need to coach the inputs that result in good skiing and recognize that the weight on the inside ski is just a side effect. Since Schlopy and all those racers CAN ski without weight on the inside ski, it obviously proves the point that weighting it does nothing to help with divergence or convergence or whatever... and GG makes those points very well in his article.
The only way, In my mind, at the risk of repeating myself, to get value from focusing on the inside ski, other than just balancing on it to improve that skill, is to focus on unweighting it and tipping it - which gives one a lot of benefits, like GG noted above, not just in a race and hard snow, on piste, but building great balance skills etc. GG seems to agree
quote: "while perfecting these skills one should pay attention to a proper lift of the inside ski as well as to a correct placing of the ski on the snow and edging it."cheers, all.
p.s. just to be clear, I am not advocating lifting the inside ski throughout the turn or something like that, except for drills... in fact, I like to keep my tips down when skiing...
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Oh, so now it is 10% to 23% on the inside ... after reading Gershman's article? What happened to the 100% weight/pressure shift mantra??? Hmmmm ...
Well then allow me to simplify it for anyone who may be interested. In the website I cited: http://youcanski.com/en/use-of-the-inside-ski-in-modern-race-turns, Gurshman says: “In regular turns on steep to medium pitch the approximate ratio of pressure distribution between the skis is as following:”
“In turn phase 1 it is 80% on the outside ski - & - 20% on the inside ski
In turn phase 2 it is 65% - 70% on the outside ski - & - 35% - 30% on the inside ski
In turn phase 3 it is 50% - 60% on the outside ski - & - 50% - 40% on the inside ski”
What part of this does one see 100% pressure distribution? !00% pressure distribution was so 1985 ...
Well then allow me to simplify it for anyone who may be interested. In the website I cited: http://youcanski.com/en/use-of-the-inside-ski-in-modern-race-turns, Gurshman says: “In regular turns on steep to medium pitch the approximate ratio of pressure distribution between the skis is as following:”
“In turn phase 1 it is 80% on the outside ski - & - 20% on the inside ski
In turn phase 2 it is 65% - 70% on the outside ski - & - 35% - 30% on the inside ski
In turn phase 3 it is 50% - 60% on the outside ski - & - 50% - 40% on the inside ski”
What part of this does one see 100% pressure distribution? !00% pressure distribution was so 1985 ...
Quote me right, @Doby Man I said that any specific prescription like 10% or whatever you were suggesting was irrelevant. And I said that before and after reading the article.
As to it being so 1985, how do you like this: the 2017 Canadian Race coaching manual for level 1 lists carving the outside ski 100% as fundamental of skiing #5 !
I agree that GG is a great guy and has produced a lot of interesting material, but this is a national race organization, with many real WC coaches, in the business of creating real WC skiers!
In fact GG, as I quoted, clearly promotes teaching 100% as well.
So between a random anonymous guy on a forum and a national race coaching organization, can you guess whose word I am going to take... on matters of teaching?
P.s. for those just as puzzled by this as I am, it is a goal for any great skier to be able to ski with 100% balance on the outside ski and manage the inside ski accordingly! An inability to do so will be a liability!
edit/
I'm sorry, I need to clarify my own thoughts on this, after so many words!!! I'll hopefully formulate a more complete post later, for now:
Weight does not matter! Like I keep saying, balance matters. We're not teaching weight, we teach balance and we can't teach 80% or 92% balance. Very few can realistically even feel that difference! You are either balanced on edge at the beginning or the end of the turn or the apex or you are not! Which edge is not that relevant and which pressure or weight in pounds or other units of measure is not relevant either!
Do you have the balance and control to be able to stand on the edge in a variety of turn shapes and slopes, or not? If not, then you better develop it, by taking away the inside ski!
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This might go without saying for most everybody here, but I think it worth contributing to the conversation that where the base of support exists at an given moment (aka where pressure is directed, or which ski we're balanced against) ought to be in a flowing, oscillating state between the skis. I think when talking about pressure ratio between skis, or "100% outside ski", it is usually implied to mean at the apex of any given turn. I just worry that a novice would read such talk and come to the misunderstanding that in good skiing you suddenly switch from ski to ski, turn to turn.
Very good point!! Skiing is never on/off !
However, about the "at the apex" part... in my mind, it is about the difference between pressure and balance. We should be in 100% balance on the new ski, in my mind, at least as soon as we switch the edges and this is especially important at the top of the turn. Towards the end of the turn, we start moving the balance to the other ski, of course, depending on the choice of release.
Yes, pressure will increase and decrease throughout the turn, but it's important to think of it as "receiving pressure" or "allowing pressure to appear" or "getting pressure from the mountain" as opposed to pushing into the ski, to "create pressure".
Also, 100% is deceiving to some extent. We can make turns with 0.5g, 1g, 2g or 3g. Which is 100% ? I guess we normally mean 100% of the available pressure at that point in the turn... in which case I think that we should normally aim to be 100% on the outside ski from the transition to the apex, while not pushing into the skis, but just keeping them engaged - and I say "normally", because you may choose to start on the old outside ski as opposed to the new outside ski. And again, this is the "nominal" or "ideal" turn - in real life, things may go from bad to worse in any given run.
Towards the apex, those of us that prefer to ski with large angles will start to unwillingly put some weight on the inside ski, as it is tucked between the outside knee and the snow... as you can see in this still of mine from earlier today, there are not many options to hide the thing:
...and, from that point on, you start to release, so likely some weight moves to the old inside foot / new outside foot - in a mix of whatever : (100-whatever) depending on the release you choose.
I hope that clarifies 100% of my thoughts on the 100% issue
bottom line: we should not teach pressure directly, just because we see there is sometimes pressure; we should teach balance and the movements that allow pressure to happen and when it happens, how to balance with it and deal with it - this is a commonality that I see from and hear from many modern high-performance skiers at the top of our sport!cheers
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Yes, race coaches and top end skiers never talk about ski pressure. I can’t help but to wonder where you come up with some of this stuff. Nevertheless, it certainly looks as though, however reluctantly with much complicated explanation and semantic shuffleboard, the 100% weight shift dogma is finally going to the dogs. Woof, woof.
@Doby Man
#1 I never said we don't talk about pressure - where do you get that from? I just talked about pressure at length in my post just above... How it appears, how to not create it "manually" and more... how it's more in some turns and less in other, how it increases and decreases, how pressure is a result, an outcome of putting the skis on edge and being patient etc - it is not an input into anything...
#2 we need to be balanced 100% on the outside ski! Is that more clear? And no, that does not contradict what I just posted above, at all, if you read the post.
#3 "woof woof"? Really?
#4 It looks like you don't ski at a high enough level: you're trying to explain skiing at a very low level, which will hardly result in great skiing! We do not shift weight: when you glide on a green run and ski without any performance whatsoever, all you have is weight and you shift it from ski to ski, like you keep coming back to.
If that is your universe, fair enough: you shift weight.
Trying to understand these concepts will help you a lot: at a much higher level of performance, we talk about balance, relaxation and receiving pressure, as JF Beaulieu nicely put it. We transfer the balance from foot to foot, as needed, no weight, no pressure. We relax into angles, which is the exact opposite of creating pressure early or pressuring the skis or weight transfer and all these things you seem to know and understand. And then, if we've done everything right, we receive pressure from the mountain.
Pressure is an outcome of a good turn.
Here's an example I was analyzing just now, recorded this morning - me passing by the camera on a black run - it's not a particularly great turn, but it shows what I mean. Excuse the quality, the camera came with a phone. You can see:
1. balance transferred to the new outside leg early. no pressure:
2-3. edging and gliding while balancing on the outside ski and relaxing into angles. no pressure
4. the outside leg extending while still creating angles. no pressure
5. late as the angles build up, slight pressure appears. and the rest is obvious
I strongly recommend some literature and videos, to help you understand modern skiing at a high level.
JF Beaulieu videos are really good - one of the great skiers out there:
https://www.skiwithjf.com/buy-videos
Reilly, Paul and the gang - among the best skiers out there - anything coming from them is highly recommended, and they have created a lot (and hopefully more to come):
https://vimeo.com/projectedproductions
In terms of books, the two authors I would recommend are Warren Witherell and Harald Harb.
cheers
p.s. Here's Lindsay, a great montage showing the exact same movement pattern. Watch how late at the blue gate the pressure and ski bend appear - and when it appears, it's on the outside ski! She is just tipping the skis on edge, without any pressure, just creating big angles, for so long... only in frame 4 from the back does some pressure and ski bend appear.
Honestly, this is modern skiing at a high level, I don't know in how many more ways to explain and demonstrate this!!! I'm going to hang up the keyboard for a while, this is taking way too much time... and there's some wine waiting on the waxing bench!
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@razie, since you cite Harb, here’s his post from January. Not one of those photos shows pressure on the outside ski. In fact, almost all of them show most of the pressure on the inside ski.
https://harbskisysems.blogspot.com/2019/01/early-pressure-in-skiing-big-fallacy.html
https://harbskisysems.blogspot.com/2019/01/early-pressure-in-skiing-big-fallacy.html
He already said whatever he had to say in that post, I'm not going to translate it... but do you really not see that in most of those there is no pressure on the inside foot either? Just balance? Which is I think exactly the point of that post???
But...anyways, were you referencing this part of my post? If so, yeah, sure, we do that too and those photos agree with me - what is your point?
In virtually every one of those photos, the spray coming off of the inside ski is greater than the outside ski, meaning there is more pressure on the inside ski. Just thought it was interesting and not something that I think I would ever coach, but if you are Hirscher or Kristofferson, you are in a different realm of athleticism.
I was thinking Harald Harb while looking at the five video caps of your feet. Can people see why?
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