Weight on outside ski or inside ski?

[markojp]

@Mike King

• JF Beaulieu: The outside ski is the rider, the inside ski the decider'

I can’t remember seeing rider/decider. I may have and would have not followed up on it if I did. I have seen most if the Treble Cove crew’s videos but not purchased any of their videos. I’m beginning to be a little put off with them and HH for their language with the caveat, if you want the detail buy the videos here….. They have some good video’s but the promo part is a putoff..

There's a bunch of free vid that JF talks about this from Yaz Kawasaki on youtube. Sort of word soupy, but covers the territory you're replying to.

 

[razie]

Sort of word soupy

...can't stop listening to that cool accent

 

[oldschoolskier]

Sometimes when I ski on steeper slopes my skis get crossed on steeper slopes, I assume it's because I'm not switching edges correctly, I kind of lean on the outside ski and rotate my inside ski.

so I googled the problem and found this article
https://medium.com/@wearnotch/changing-edges-being-a-smooth-yet-dynamic-skier-3c6d8d0d2854
it describes my problem exactly and it says that in order to change edges I need to shift my weight to the INSIDE ski, there are even exercises that involve lifting the outside ski in the turn.
Now, this looks like it'll help me fix my skis being crossed BUT I was tought to shift my weight to the outside ski to initiate a turn.

So I searched some more and found guides telling me to lean on the OUTSIDE ski but the skiier in the picture is clearly leaning inside http://www.mechanicsofsport.com/skiing/how_to_ski/graphics/skier-carving.png

So what's up with that, how can I put my weight outside while my entire body is on the inside?

The skier you see in the “Static” photo is balanced on both skis. Which means he has weighted both skis equally to achieve this while cancelling out all forces being applied by the change of direction as the spray of the snow is coming off equally.

Rotate the photo clockwise you get what I mean, another do the same with @Noodler Avitar counter-clockwise or sneaky @razie Avitar clockwise to get him into the initial balanced position. (For those that don’t understand sneaky is a compliment for doing this with his image, @razie)

Don’t over think it. The stance is how far in can we lean to counter act the turning forces, while how to we maintain the downwards forces to keep the edges pressed against the snows surface for maximum bite. This is the in but over in what you see. Looking at it without all force arrows applied gives the wrong impression.

Hopefully this gives you the insight into what is being said and explained.

 

[markojp]

The stance is how far in can we lean to counter act the turning forces, while how to we maintain the downwards forces to keep the edges pressed against the snows surface for maximum bite. .

I won't speak for Razie or Noodler, but the moment I 'lean in' to counter forces, I'll lose my ability to move at will over my outside foot or to subtly tip or steer my feet to adjust the arc of a turn. I like to think of angles as a resultant, not created force, and do just as much as necessary to keep from falling over the outside foot and not a bit more.

 

[Noodler]

I won't speak for Razie or Noodler, but the moment I 'lean in' to counter forces, I'll lose my ability to move at will over my outside foot or to subtly tip or steer my feet to adjust the arc of a turn. I like to think of angles as a resultant, not created force, and do just as much as necessary to keep from falling over the outside foot and not a bit more.

QFT. Nailed it.

 

[oldschoolskier]

I won't speak for Razie or Noodler, but the moment I 'lean in' to counter forces, I'll lose my ability to move at will over my outside foot or to subtly tip or steer my feet to adjust the arc of a turn. I like to think of angles as a resultant, not created force, and do just as much as necessary to keep from falling over the outside foot and not a bit more.

We are saying the same thing. It’s all about the balance, too much correction and it results in the issues you describe, not enough and you just don’t edge.

BTW I choose those two as they show extremes at either end, show what is done right.

 

[Slasher]

The issue of inside vs outside ski for a skier is very similar to front vs rear wheels for bikes/cars.

On a bicycle, braking forces on the contact patch between the tire and road are positioned well below the rider's centre of mass, thus produce a torque around the transverse axis that tend to tip the rider forward, transferring balance to the front wheel. This happens regardless whether the initial braking force is generated by the front or rear wheel. If braking with the front wheel, more and more pressure transfers to the front wheel, increasing friction, thus brake force can increase to the point that the bike completely tips over (a "stoppie" or "endo"). If braking with the rear wheel, you'll eventually reach an equilibrium where the pressure and thus grip is reduced by the balance transfer, no additional braking force between ground and rear tire can be generated, and you just gently skid. Which is why braking with the rear wheel is "easy" but, for high performance riding, ineffective.

Similarly for skiers, lateral forces produce a transfer of balance from the inside to outside ski, thus extreme turning forces can only be generated by the outside ski, and begintermediates who ride the inside ski end up gently skidding (which they are usually fine with).

The key is to understand that the transfer of balance is the RESULT (output) of generated braking/turning forces, not so much the precursor (input).

 

[James]

I won't speak for Razie or Noodler, but the moment I 'lean in' to counter forces, I'll lose my ability to move at will over my outside foot or to subtly tip or steer my feet to adjust the arc of a turn. I like to think of angles as a resultant, not created force, and do just as much as necessary to keep from falling over the outside foot and not a bit more.

If you know the forces are coming, you can start with a lot of inclination, no? Freeskiing racers often establish huge inclination before the skis have even hooked up. Esp visible when they freeski with slalom skis.

Here's Ted on gs skis.

 

[LiquidFeet]

See Ted's new outside elbow up in the air in that first image? Try that. Gets you onto higher edge angles early, waay above the fall line. Don't forget to angulate afterwards to direct pressure to the outside ski.

 

[geepers]

The issue of inside vs outside ski for a skier is very similar to front vs rear wheels for bikes/cars.

On a bicycle, braking forces on the contact patch between the tire and road are positioned well below the rider's centre of mass, thus produce a torque around the transverse axis that tend to tip the rider forward, transferring balance to the front wheel. This happens regardless whether the initial braking force is generated by the front or rear wheel. If braking with the front wheel, more and more pressure transfers to the front wheel, increasing friction, thus brake force can increase to the point that the bike completely tips over (a "stoppie" or "endo"). If braking with the rear wheel, you'll eventually reach an equilibrium where the pressure and thus grip is reduced by the balance transfer, no additional braking force between ground and rear tire can be generated, and you just gently skid. Which is why braking with the rear wheel is "easy" but, for high performance riding, ineffective.

Similarly for skiers, lateral forces produce a transfer of balance from the inside to outside ski, thus extreme turning forces can only be generated by the outside ski, and begintermediates who ride the inside ski end up gently skidding (which they are usually fine with).

The key is to understand that the transfer of balance is the RESULT (output) of generated braking/turning forces, not so much the precursor (input).

Hmmm... not sure that's a valid comparison.

In the case of a two wheel machine that transfer of weight happens regardless. The rider can do little to control it (except release the brakes).

In the case of skiing we can arbitrarily determine our weight distribution - if we wish we could do the entire turn on only the inside ski. Watch enough Marcel and you're sure to see turns predominantly done on the inside ski (because that's what he needed to do to make a gate not because it's the ideal way to ski.) Weight transfer to the outside does not happen automatically.

 

[markojp]

Let's not confuse inclination above apex with 'leaning in'.

 

[James]

Let's not confuse inclination above apex as 'leaning in'.

Oohh, I like.
I think the big difference though is the immediate shortening of the inside more than the outside.

See Ted's new outside elbow up in the air in that first image? Try that. Gets you onto higher edge angles early, waay above the fall line. Don't forget to angulate afterwards to direct pressure to the outside ski.

That's kind of a Ted quirk. I always saw it as how he stabilizied the upper body. He also used to drop the inside arm/hand back during transition to ...? Gives him counter and sets up the turn entry?

I screen shotted this sequence a few years ago. Actually the speed suit looks more Austrian. So, not sure who it is.

 

[geepers]

@James , surely he's stivoting into that turn which is a somewhat different dynamic.

 

[LiquidFeet]

Some time back I did this sequence of Ted's arm swing
taken from an overhead camera.
The new outside arm swing lifts his shoulder, tips his body
into the turn faster, and consequently speeds up his edging above the fall line.

 

[razie]

@James that guy was bounced hard in the back seat by something in the previous frame - he was just recovering - it's a classic cat-like shake-and-twist

 

[James]

@James that guy was bounced hard in the back seat by something in the previous frame - he was just recovering - it's a classic cat-like shake-and-twist

Don't think so. I mean possibly in that instance. However, see below for the similar thing and it's not a bump.

@James , surely he's stivoting into that turn which is a somewhat different dynamic.

Maybe. Really more of a drift. So essentially using it for counter rotation.

Some arm swing up is sometimes a result of the release of forces from the turn. It can be quite strong. I wonder if at times he diverts this force to rearward to counter rotate.

Here's Ted, 2013 Lenzerheide:

 

[razie]

This one's different from the Austrian - that had that massive cat-like twist with the outside shoulder and hand, while sliding the skis out, typical when you're recovering from being thrown in the back seat, but have to make the next turn... this last one's more typical - he's quite square, I'd have to say - doesn't look like a big offset turn... looks like Ted doing his Heidi goes to school hip-hop hand thing - the timing is different from the Austrian's recovering move, it's before engagement.

 

[Tony S]

@trouts2

You're now ignored. You've made a very interesting introduction of yourself to PugSki. Bye.

Yeah. Wow. Amazing. I just got the same treatment and I have the same response as you!

 

[Kneale Brownson]

Geeez, I miss all the fun. I take it fish2 is no longer with us?