Weight on outside ski or inside ski?

[Angel Spear]

Sometimes when I ski on steeper slopes my skis get crossed on steeper slopes, I assume it's because I'm not switching edges correctly, I kind of lean on the outside ski and rotate my inside ski.

so I googled the problem and found this article
https://medium.com/@wearnotch/changing-edges-being-a-smooth-yet-dynamic-skier-3c6d8d0d2854
it describes my problem exactly and it says that in order to change edges I need to shift my weight to the INSIDE ski, there are even exercises that involve lifting the outside ski in the turn.
Now, this looks like it'll help me fix my skis being crossed BUT I was tought to shift my weight to the outside ski to initiate a turn.

So I searched some more and found guides telling me to lean on the OUTSIDE ski but the skiier in the picture is clearly leaning inside http://www.mechanicsofsport.com/skiing/how_to_ski/graphics/skier-carving.png

So what's up with that, how can I put my weight outside while my entire body is on the inside?

 

[Kneale Brownson]

After seeing the bit of video introducing that medium dot com report, I decided I didn't need to read all the way through it. I don't want to ski like a jumping jack. However, the green-suited skier obviously is outside-ski dominant, which is what's generally considered the best approach. As the article basically points out, we go right on our right edges and left on our left edges, in both cases using what becomes the inside edges of the skis. To go right on the right edges as in the picture, our center of mass must be inside those edges to use them. The pressure can be applied more to the outside ski by how we employ our muscles. The picture shows more snow spraying off the outside ski of the turn than off the inside ski, so the skier is applying more pressure to the outside ski. The forces created by turning allows making the outside ski dominant while the COM is inside the skis.

 

[LiquidFeet]

Clarification needs to be made here. Between turns, which ski is the "inside ski" changes. when you are traveling across the fall line between turns, there's the OLD inside ski (uphill ski), and the NEW inside ski (downhill ski). When writers and speakers don't include "old" or "new"in their descriptions, it gets very confusing to figure out which ski they are referring to.

As you are heading across the hill between those turns, the Old inside ski becomes the NEW outside ski as soon as you decide to start the new turn. Confusing! Your weight moves to that new outside ski ski in the top half of the new turn for smooth, dynamic skiing. It's also the uphill ski at that point, if you have completed your old turn and have a top to your new C-shaped turn.

There are two distinct ways to transfer weight to that new outside ski that are good to do, and several bad ways.

One good way is to do something with the new inside leg (downhill leg) to remove weight from its ski (downhill ski, old outside ski, new inside ski) as you start the new turn. There are so many ways to referring to each leg/ski. I like to always call them by their "new" name. So this way involves doing something with the new inside ski. Remove the weight from the new inside ski by shortening that leg, softening that leg, bending that leg, or you can lighten the weight on that ski by lifting its tail. There are other things you can do with it, but this covers the most common ones. This action will by default move your weight to the new outside ski.

You do not move your body uphill over the new outside ski to put your weight on it. No, not that. That's a bad way of transferring weight. Do something with your feet/legs/skis, not your upper body or your whole body. Make turns with your feet and legs.

The other good way is to do something with the new outside leg to start the turn. While traveling across the fall line, lengthen the new outside leg (uphill leg), straighten that leg, press downward onto the snow with that leg. Do not push outward with that leg, do not push that foot uphill (no no no! ... but oh-so-easy to do). This lengthening action of the new outside leg should, if you allow it, tilt your whole body a little bit like the Leaning Tower of Piza. You may not even feel this tilt. Do not intentionally tilt your body downhill, just lengthen that leg to stand tall. This action will by default flatten both skis and will directly place your weight on that new outside ski for the new turn. Now shorten the new inside leg and you've got your new turn.

 

[Mike King]

in steeps you need to be very careful about directing pressure to the inside ski. Too much pressure on the inside ski can lead to being "high sided" where that ski catches, say on a bump, arc inside and drags you into a fall, or launches you down the hill. Either can be very detrimental or even deathly, depending on the terrain.

Mike

 

[Rod9301]

in steeps you need to be very careful about directing pressure to the inside ski. Too much pressure on the inside ski can lead to being "high sided" where that ski catches, say on a bump, arc inside and drags you into a fall, or launches you down the hill. Either can be very detrimental or even deathly, depending on the terrain.

Mike

Very true. Also, when it's steep, 40 degrees or more, skis should be fairly close together, so you don't have any or very little weight on the inside (uphill ski as you finish the turn).

Even the best skiers sometimes widen their stance on steeps, because of the gear factor.

 

[Angel Spear]

Thank you all very much! @Kneale Brownson helped me understand the difference between COM and actual pressure.
@LiquidFeet for that extensive guide on the difference between new/old inside/outside, that just what I needed, also great tips of weight shifting, I'll try that.
@Mike King and @Rod9301 you actually pointed out another problem I was having that in the second half of the turn (after the fall line) my new inside ski sometimes caught a bump or a patch of snow and I would start spinning. I'll try to put zero weight to the new inside ski from now on

 

[razie]

,

I'll try to put zero weight to the new inside ski from now on

Nice topic for your first post, @Angel Spear - quick question: how are you rotating the inside foot, if you also put weight on it?

This video from the awesome Italian group has some good explanations and visuals why you should focus on putting your weight 100% on the outside ski, as well as some ideas to work on that


Watching these guys ski, it's clear you're doing something wrong... if your skis get crossed while you're on the outside ski, is because you're not tipping the inside ski - when you're tipping the inside ski into the new turn strongly, it sometimes tends to diverge a little, so quite the opposite of what you're experiencing, hence the lazy inside foot diagnosis.

The good news is that it's easily cured. They have several other videos where they discuss this subject specifically and how to work on the inside foot management. All totally worth watching and learning from these guys. Great skiers, unlike some demonstrators out there , so I would totally take their word to heart! @Kneale Brownson - that demo was totally but unfortunately it's not the only out there...

cheers and good luck managing your inside foot better.

 

[AchtungSki]

If I'm not mistaken Angel Spear meant he is getting his tips crossed when the inside edge of the new inside ski catches as the new outside ski comes around, thus throwing him down the hill. I'm a relatively new skier and I have the same issue on steep slopes that I try to make short pivoting turns down. I assume we need to remove weight by flexing the new inside leg faster to account for the increased slope?

 

[Chris V.]

If I'm not mistaken Angel Spear meant he is getting his tips crossed when the inside edge of the new inside ski catches as the new outside ski comes around, thus throwing him down the hill. I'm a relatively new skier and I have the same issue on steep slopes that I try to make short pivoting turns down. I assume we need to remove weight by flexing the new inside leg faster to account for the increased slope?

Being in too much of a hurry to bring that outside ski around, combined with deficient control of the inside ski, can lead to this. As Razie discusses, it's a matter of inside foot discipline. Paradoxically, keeping the focus on the inside foot will have good results, despite the fact that it bears little weight. Properly tip and direct the inside ski, and the outside ski will usually remain parallel without the skier giving it a lot of separate attention. Focus only on the outside ski, and the inside leg is likely to A-frame. Bringing the outside ski around too suddenly generally results in the skier getting back-seated, as well. At that point, with the weight being on the tails of the skis, the tips are liable to wander in all kinds of unpredictable ways.

 

[Erik Timmerman]

Skiing with Terry Barbour (a guy that has some major credibility for me) the other day and he said (paraphrasing) as we watched a group of L3 candidates "that fundamental of outside ski pressure is the worst thing that's happened to our organization in a long time". If he says it, I feel like I owe it to him to reconsider my thoughts on the subject. I've personally not found the fundamentals to be that helpful either, and I think in terms of balancing on my outside ski rather than pressuring or weighting it (is there a difference) as pressure I think is something we should be receiving from the snow and not something we should be trying to create. As we watched them plodding along, I could see what he meant. He elaborated "sometimes it might just be 49% and 51%" that's a place where I think we hurt ourselves by spending so much time watching Marcel Hirscher ski. As if any of us are or could be doing that. Yes, balance on your outside ski. When/where in the turn maybe that's a different story.

I will be wearing my nome for the rest of the day.

 

[Average Joe]

Do I read this correctly, that he believes that the "worst thing that has happened to our organization" (assume PSIA) is teaching one ski balance on the downhill side...............??????

 

[Erik Timmerman]

That people have taken it way too far and think they should be 100% committed to the outside ski all the time.

 

[Average Joe]

Great skiers can turn on any ski, at any time.

 

[Josh Matta]

Terry Barbour and Mac Jackson(who is effectively and admittedly a student of Terry's), may be changing my mind on this. I think on hard snow I am going to stay with my outside ski...but I thought I was two footed in weird off piste conditions but apparently I wasnt. Just in the past month terry taught me how to enjoy sugar snow...well maybe enjoy isnt the right word for it but manage it better, on Monday and Tuesday Mac taught me how to balance more on the inside ski in wind slab on skinny skis, it made me skiing steep wind slabbed bumps much smoother, still was challenging in the woods with a wind slab on skinny skis....

The thing is I would say even when I was balanced on the inside ski, if I took it too far, the outside ski would decamber and run straight, I will continue to teach outside ski balance to people trying to find balance on groomed slopes, and because I believe the movements that lead to outside ski balance also make it easier to start feeding in inside ski balance when we need it.

BTW I hate the term direct pressure to the outside ski as well, even on hard snow we balance on it. The way people perceive this as Erik say is the ski and really the boots bottom pressing back at us, it isnt the other way around.

 

[Coach13]

I’m obviously not the level skier many of you all are but I’ve always been a big fan of just allowing my weight to shift naturally from ski to ski and maintaining my balance along that natural weight shift. Obviously the steeper the terrain or the faster the turn the more weight shifts to the outside ski, but I don’t consciously make it happen.

 

[Kneale Brownson]

I can see the thought, "direct pressure toward the outside ski" leading one to PRESS on the outside foot, which would make that leg stiff. You don't want a stiff leg, you want a stacked leg that can carry the weight and still be maneuverable.

Regarding crossing ski tips, I see this happening when skiers try to push the outside ski through a turn rather than allow the ski to turn. They lack patience and try to hurry the turn.

 

[razie]

I think in terms of balancing on my outside ski rather than pressuring or weighting it (is there a difference) as pressure I think is something we should be receiving from the snow and not something we should be trying to create.

good point and good distinction between weight and balance!

The thing with committing 100% at least on this side, comes from racing, which is all on ice. But it's important in my mind for all high-performance on-piste skiing, that's why we see it touted by most in that area. It is important, biomechanically - otherwise you give up grip and control, you give up angles and range of movement. Also, we can't really progress to those levels until we own that skill too.

I do like it also as a teaching tool. Very few skiers have the refined balance to actually be able to commit 100% - and balance is skill #1 of all skiing, anywhere! Working on that continuously is important, especially as one evolves through different stages of refinement. And I don't mean just on a green, I mean in different conditions, different turn shapes on different runs.

Once you have it, then it's up to you how you use it...

cheers

 

[Swede]

From my (a race) perspective which has outside as a mantra. First clip "green dude" is normal outside dominant skiing. He uses the inside ski (that will become the new outside ski momentarily) to initiate the turn and then move more and more weight over to it as he proceed into the turn — has all or near all on the outside in the midst of the turn. The exercise is an exercise and not a way to ski efficiently. Goal is to be comfortable on any edge at any time -- which helps you to start turns earlier and redirect quicker and smoother, and essentially ... to be able to put weight on the outside asap in the turn, preferably already before your skis are pointing down the fall line. I see nothing new. Outside is king in modern skiing. Get on the outside as soon as your strength and skill allows you to and, maybe, kiss skidding on steep hills goodbye.
Second dude (still) is a royal hip dumper. Seriously flawed technique that needs complete deconstruction and relearning.

 

[AchtungSki]

Being in too much of a hurry to bring that outside ski around, combined with deficient control of the inside ski, can lead to this. As Razie discusses, it's a matter of inside foot discipline. Paradoxically, keeping the focus on the inside foot will have good results, despite the fact that it bears little weight. Properly tip and direct the inside ski, and the outside ski will usually remain parallel without the skier giving it a lot of separate attention. Focus only on the outside ski, and the inside leg is likely to A-frame. Bringing the outside ski around too suddenly generally results in the skier getting back-seated, as well. At that point, with the weight being on the tails of the skis, the tips are liable to wander in all kinds of unpredictable ways.

So let's say I'm starting from stationary with skis perpendicular to the fall line on a steep slope. Since most of my weight will be on the downhill ski, what's the proper way to initiate a short turn to avoid picking up lots of speed as in this case the new inside ski is weighted? I think that's the scenario that trips me up the most.

 

[LiquidFeet]

@AchtungSki,
For speed-controlling turns on super steeps, look at the turns at the start of this from 0.58 to 1.10
and again at 1.44 to 1.54. It doesn't look like she has weight concentrated on the outside/downhill ski in these turns.