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Chris V.

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@razie, since you cite Harb, here’s his post from January. Not one of those photos shows pressure on the outside ski. In fact, almost all of them show most of the pressure on the inside ski.

https://harbskisysems.blogspot.com/2019/01/early-pressure-in-skiing-big-fallacy.html

I'm not saying Harb is wrong here, but the video frames he selects to illustrate his point are useless or downright misleading. They're perfect examples of the recently discussed inadequacy of single still shots for movement analysis. Half of the shots show airborne skiers, resulting from some irregularity in the surface. An airborne skier will travel in a straight line, obviously--neither the goal nor the usual result for racers.
 

Chris V.

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DFOTiqe0t8yAb8A3Rwf2DAqPFKm7ZSJKvxnMWWZbi-YjVfovSJ7uwd-OLHSWL1mQkXw5B-HHoABiW-zwlXWf_wJ1kTlmmThv8ZzsbaHeEoEmgO-nNP5gjDKRLLXTQbhP_3mv1dee

This shot is interesting. The tracks created during the moment of transition show shallow, flat depressions in the snow created by flat skis. The tracks created by the right edges just after transition are equal in depth to those created by the left edges just before transition. The skis never decambered. The snow was exerting force on the ski bases right through the transition. Query--did the front halves of the skis remain somewhat bent even where the skis were flat?

Concerning all the discussion of inside vs. outside ski weighting, some observations/hypotheses/queries:

o In the top part of a turn, total force upward on skis = centripetal force minus gravity. In the bottom part, total force = centripetal force plus gravity. At transition, total force = gravity only. There is no centripetal force. All VERY roughly speaking. All subject to being altered by the effects of flexion and extension.

o The difference, between the top and bottom of a turn, in the contribution of gravity, is greater on steeper slopes than on gentler slopes.

o This is one reason why, on the question of how force gets distributed ski to ski, not all turns are created equal. Turns on gentle terrain differ from turns on steep terrain. Short radius turns differ from longer radius turns. Turns that test the limits of our ability to bend whatever skis we're on differ from turns that are more comfortably within the bounds of the natural carving abilities of those skis.

o Greater force on the base of a ski => more bent ski => tighter carve.

o If we want to create a tighter carve, we should allow a greater part of the total upward force to be directed to just one ski, so as to bend it as much as possible. Assuming we're capable of holding a grip with that one edge.

o Since the total upward force is at its minimum in the top part of a turn, it may be desirable during that turn phase to direct a large part of that upward force to one ski.

o Since the total upward force is at its maximum in the bottom part of a turn, it may be desirable during that turn phase to distribute that force more equally between the two skis, so as to successfully manage that force within the physical capabilities of the equipment and the skier.
 

Mike King

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o Greater force on the base of a ski => more bent ski => tighter carve.

o If we want to create a tighter carve, we should allow a greater part of the total upward force to be directed to just one ski, so as to bend it as much as possible. Assuming we're capable of holding a grip with that one edge.

o Since the total upward force is at its minimum in the top part of a turn, it may be desirable during that turn phase to direct a large part of that upward force to one ski.

o Since the total upward force is at its maximum in the bottom part of a turn, it may be desirable during that turn phase to distribute that force more equally between the two skis, so as to successfully manage that force within the physical capabilities of the equipment and the skier.

@Chris V. this would make sense if force was the limiting factor. I don't think that's the case. There's plenty of force to bend skis to conform to the shape that the sidecut/hard snow surface allows. The limiting factor is edge angle, not force.

Mike
 

Smear

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#2 we need to be balanced 100% on the outside ski! Is that more clear? And no, that does not contradict what I just posted above, at all, if you read the post.

What does that mean really?

In a high performance turn there isn’t much pressure on any ski in the around the transition. There isn’t much turning going on either. In a high performance turn you need lots of edge angle at the apex. Most of that edge angle comes from inclination of the COM, and you need it fast. Somewhere in between the transition and the apex, there is a point where there still is not a lot of turning going on but there is plenty of inclination of the COM. The balance then is going to be toward the inside. At that point:

Option 1:
There might be an inside ski taking some of pressure and resisting/controlling falling further the inside.

OR

Option 2:
The inside ski receive little to no ground force and could as well be in the air. In the last case the inside ski has no role in controlling inclination or assisting in lateral balance through ground force. (Can still have effect through mass distribution)

At a later point in the turn in both options, the turning forces will catch up with inclination and at some passing point there can be 100% weight distribution and 100% balance over the outside ski.

Are you saying that "option nr 2" is the only model turn that you find value in coaching as a goal? And is that were @Doby Man disagrees?

Confused :huh:
 

razie

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You could say that, I guess... but there's more to it...

What does that mean really?

In a high performance turn there isn’t much pressure on any ski in the around the transition. There isn’t much turning going on either. In a high performance turn you need lots of edge angle at the apex. Most of that edge angle comes from inclination of the COM, and you need it fast. Somewhere in between the transition and the apex, there is a point where there still is not a lot of turning going on but there is plenty of inclination of the COM. The balance then is going to be toward the inside.

:thumb: Except for the section in red. The balance is never towards the inside, that is the point !

At skis flat you have no inclination of COM and you're right, we need to create it quickly. If you put any pressure on the inside ski, you're slowing down this process of establishing COM inclination, simply because Newton will push the COM up with the same pressure, right from underneath it. Which is fine, if you just ski on a green run, but it will result in much bigger turns on a steep run.

What you want to do is to direct balance towards the new outside ski instead, which is the one that will need to hold you up at the apex, at max pressure. Not pushing into it, because that also slows down or stops edge angles (COM inclination) but just keeping it engaged and gliding, i.e. balance on it especially as pressure starts to appear.

---

Let me start easy. Gliding and doing easy turns o a green run. You can get away with anything here, but, you can still lift the new inside foot at skis flat and make the entire turn on the outside ski. While doing this, you can make bigger or smaller turns. You can control the rate of COM inclination even with the foot up - ergo, you don't need to pressure it to slow down COM inclination. The COM simply falls inside because you lifted that foot...

If you instead at skis flat, push into the inside ski 50%, you won't fall inside anymore - you're stuck. If you push into it 10%, you get some benefit, but reduced balance skills on the outside ski. If this is your "go to turn" you will never be able to establish balance 100% on the outside ski, even when you need it.

Let's ramp it up to high-performance turns on a black run and by that I mean slalom turns, not gliding half mile GS turns. The energy and momentums take over - you no longer talk about weight, but momentum, balance and wheather I'm relaxing and giving into pressure or resisting pressure.

Your COM still needs to establish inclination, this is eased first by the flexing to release, which results usually in a lower COM than otherwise, so it's already lower. If here you again push into the inside ski early, you're slowing down edge angle creation again and your turn shape is screwed! If you push into the outside ski too early, same thing happens, but you'd at least be balanced on it and have more control over that one.

You can also think of it this way: once you commit to pushing into the inside ski, you will not reduce that push. Pressure only increases through a turn, it doesn't decrease, it's not like just before the apex you have time to decide to shift balance significantly, so you'll end up at the max pressure phase, with what, 30% weight on the inside leg, which is bent and now holding up 60% of your body mass, at 2g? Why - when the outside is long and you're stacked and balanced over it? If you've not established that balance over the outside leg, then yes - you will have to get your inside leg tired while turning... and likely also never achieve the big angles you're thinking of...

anyways, hope it helps. As you progress and start to ski like this, you start to realize that it's all about establishing balance as early as possible and directed to where you need it to be. Using the inside foot as a crutch on a regular basis will impair balance and reduce performance and progress. That is really the crux of my point and why I will keep insisting on the 100%!

cheers.

:beercheer:

p.s. in terms of the "turn model worth teaching" - there are several releases and each valid in different tactics and resulting in different turn models and I teach them all, but if you'd look for the "ideal or go-to turn model worth teaching", yes.
 
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Doby Man

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@Doby Man
#4 It looks like you don't ski at a high enough level: you're trying to explain skiing at a very low level, which will hardly result in great skiing! We do not shift weight: when you glide on a green run and ski without any performance whatsoever, all you have is weight and you shift it from ski to ski, like you keep coming back to.

Hey! I just got my first movement analysis from Razie! … and I didn’t even have to get a videographer, which saved me a lot of money. My question is should I tip him and how much? I think that this clever new way of administering MA's is going to be very popular here.
 

Rod9301

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One way to see the value of 100 percent weight on the outside ski is when the snow is very wind compacted, untracked, heavy, but the skis still sink in a few inches.
(Like we had yesterday at squaw)

This is where perfect balance is needed. If you have even a bit of weight on the inside ski, it can hook unpredictably.
 

Josh Matta

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One way to see the value of 100 percent weight on the outside ski is when the snow is very wind compacted, untracked, heavy, but the skis still sink in a few inches.
(Like we had yesterday at squaw)

This is where perfect balance is needed. If you have even a bit of weight on the inside ski, it can hook unpredictably.

yeah there are times when you get that slab that yuou sink in like 6 to 8 inches and good luck staying all your weight on the outside ski...
 

Rod9301

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yeah there are times when you get that slab that yuou sink in like 6 to 8 inches and good luck staying all your weight on the outside ski...
I always do this, but I'm on 112 mm skis, and i ski a Maritime snowpack.
 

François Pugh

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We all have access to a ski hill where we can make hundreds of turns a day. We can mix it up and vary the ski weighting and see what difference it makes, we can also switch up flex quickly to release and when, or extend to release and when. No need for further discussion; just do it!
 

Josh Matta

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I always do this, but I'm on 112 mm skis, and i ski a Maritime snowpack.

yeah you have seen real wind slab....a DPS wailer 112 can not deal with real wind slab with all you weight on the outside ski.
 

HardDaysNight

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You could say that, I guess... but there's more to it...



:thumb: Except for the section in red. The balance is never towards the inside, that is the point !

At skis flat you have no inclination of COM and you're right, we need to create it quickly. If you put any pressure on the inside ski, you're slowing down this process of establishing COM inclination, simply because Newton will push the COM up with the same pressure, right from underneath it. Which is fine, if you just ski on a green run, but it will result in much bigger turns on a steep run.

What you want to do is to direct balance towards the new outside ski instead, which is the one that will need to hold you up at the apex, at max pressure. Not pushing into it, because that also slows down or stops edge angles (COM inclination) but just keeping it engaged and gliding, i.e. balance on it especially as pressure starts to appear.

---

Let me start easy. Gliding and doing easy turns o a green run. You can get away with anything here, but, you can still lift the new inside foot at skis flat and make the entire turn on the outside ski. While doing this, you can make bigger or smaller turns. You can control the rate of COM inclination even with the foot up - ergo, you don't need to pressure it to slow down COM inclination. The COM simply falls inside because you lifted that foot...

If you instead at skis flat, push into the inside ski 50%, you won't fall inside anymore - you're stuck. If you push into it 10%, you get some benefit, but reduced balance skills on the outside ski. If this is your "go to turn" you will never be able to establish balance 100% on the outside ski, even when you need it.

Let's ramp it up to high-performance turns on a black run and by that I mean slalom turns, not gliding half mile GS turns. The energy and momentums take over - you no longer talk about weight, but momentum, balance and wheather I'm relaxing and giving into pressure or resisting pressure.

Your COM still needs to establish inclination, this is eased first by the flexing to release, which results usually in a lower COM than otherwise, so it's already lower. If here you again push into the inside ski early, you're slowing down edge angle creation again and your turn shape is screwed! If you push into the outside ski too early, same thing happens, but you'd at least be balanced on it and have more control over that one.

You can also think of it this way: once you commit to pushing into the inside ski, you will not reduce that push. Pressure only increases through a turn, it doesn't decrease, it's not like just before the apex you have time to decide to shift balance significantly, so you'll end up at the max pressure phase, with what, 30% weight on the inside leg, which is bent and now holding up 60% of your body mass, at 2g? Why - when the outside is long and you're stacked and balanced over it? If you've not established that balance over the outside leg, then yes - you will have to get your inside leg tired while turning... and likely also never achieve the big angles you're thinking of...

anyways, hope it helps. As you progress and start to ski like this, you start to realize that it's all about establishing balance as early as possible and directed to where you need it to be. Using the inside foot as a crutch on a regular basis will impair balance and reduce performance and progress. That is really the crux of my point and why I will keep insisting on the 100%!

cheers.

:beercheer:

p.s. in terms of the "turn model worth teaching" - there are several releases and each valid in different tactics and resulting in different turn models and I teach them all, but if you'd look for the "ideal or go-to turn model worth teaching", yes.

I really do admire your patience in responding to some of the nonsense with which you’re bombarded. People could learn a lot from your insights. It’s been a long road of wonderful progress since the Epic days!
 

Rod9301

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yeah you have seen real wind slab....a DPS wailer 112 can not deal with real wind slab with all you weight on the outside ski.
Yeah, but the dps is pretty soft, i believe it cannot deal with wind slabs.

I ski katanas, very stiff skis, metal in the resort and carbon in the backcounty.
 

Smear

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Thanks for the long post. A bit less confused now. ogsmile

In a high performance turn there isn’t much pressure on any ski in the around the transition. There isn’t much turning going on either. In a high performance turn you need lots of edge angle at the apex. Most of that edge angle comes from inclination of the COM, and you need it fast. Somewhere in between the transition and the apex, there is a point where there still is not a lot of turning going on but there is plenty of inclination of the COM. The balance then is going to be toward the inside.
:thumb: Except for the section in bold. The balance is never towards the inside, that is the point !

Balance was perhaps the wrong word. What I meant was as you fly out of the transition and end up with inclination, the amount of inclination is not in equilibrium with the turning forces at that point. How much inclination one ends up with (and how much you fly) rigth after the transition depens on how one moves in the transition. Momentum and how the divergent path of COM and skis is mangaged.

Agree that not needing the inside ski to support balance is the obvious "goal" to go for. But "Thinking out of the box" aiming for sligthly too much inclination, involving a need to use some support of the inside ski, controlling the rate of inclination by how fast the inside leg is retracted, would give more controllable inputs in the development of the turn. Thinking more theoretically about how it's actually done in high performance skiing, than what would be appropriate to coach. I guess ending up with too much weigth on inside ski, loosing balance toward the inside in an nonfunctional way, is far more common than the opposite.
 

Doby Man

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Balance was perhaps the wrong word. What I meant was as you fly out of the transition and end up with inclination, the amount of inclination is not in equilibrium with the turning forces at that point. How much inclination one ends up with (and how much you fly) rigth after the transition depens on how one moves in the transition. Momentum and how the divergent path of COM and skis is mangaged.

Agree that not needing the inside ski to support balance is the obvious "goal" to go for. But "Thinking out of the box" aiming for sligthly too much inclination, involving a need to use some support of the inside ski, controlling the rate of inclination by how fast the inside leg is retracted, would give more controllable inputs in the development of the turn. Thinking more theoretically about how it's actually done in high performance skiing, than what would be appropriate to coach. I guess ending up with too much weigth on inside ski, loosing balance toward the inside in an nonfunctional way, is far more common than the opposite.

What some do not understand is that we “balance” over our base of support (BoS). The location of our base of support is based on the distribution of pressure over the skis. The more pressure/weight/load that is to the outside, the more the BoS we are balancing on resides to the outside. The more ski pressure that exists to the inside, the more the BoS resides to the inside and where the balance will be. This is why playing semantic shuffleboard between balance and pressure does not work for anything but flip flopping for argumentative purposes.
 

razie

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What some do not understand is that we “balance” over our base of support (BoS). The location of our base of support is based on the distribution of pressure over the skis. The more pressure/weight/load that is to the outside, the more the BoS we are balancing on resides to the outside. The more ski pressure that exists to the inside, the more the BoS resides to the inside and where the balance will be. This is why playing semantic shuffleboard between balance and pressure does not work for anything but flip flopping for argumentative purposes.

I can appreciate that you have a hard time with this, moving on from equating weight with pressure and BOS with balancing! I've noticed often that even if someone understands the words, true appreciation only comes when the skiing moves to a higher performance threshold, so these abstract notions become tangible. That's when real appreciation for the simple fact that BOS is not really a BOS until it actually supports something, i.e. when pressure comes and this happens so late in the turn and for such a short duration that it doesn't explain the more important part of the turn, the top of the turn, whe wwhere we need to have 100% balance maintained (or created) even as there is still no real pressure and no real BOS - clearly visible in Lindsay's and even my snapshots above, where the ski is just maybe barely engaged, with no bend in it and when it doesn't support anything... since we're not standing on it yet...

The decoupling of maintaining 100% balance with no pushing, i.e. "no pressure", allows one to move to a higher level of performance. Speaking from personal experience of learning it and teaching it, I know that it is definitely not easy...

But the reality is that we don't need to agree on this. There are many levels of understanding and even more, many perceptions of what happens and a lot of keyboards... the issue for me arises when a low model of the turn gives birth to instructions like "oh, you can put 20% on the inside foot right at the top of every turn" which limit one's evolution right there.

Here's an example, a recent training run I would not otherwise put up - there are two turns in there that fall apart specifically because of the inside foot (the skiing looks strained because it's very difficult to make these turns without speed, but that's part of training):


It does look ok at the first glance and it's a little difficult to see at this level, but I would assume most everyone equating BOS with balance would look at the bad turn and say his balance is in the middle of his BOS so he’s balanced, not relating that to the repercussions in terms of ski performance and turn shape that results.

If anyone wants to ski towards this level, 100% balance on the outside ski is paramount! Ping me, I can hook you up with this kind of coaching ;)
 
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Doby Man

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By all means, say what you’d like. Just remember, eventually, they can’t be edited away. I just don’t know how any of the pros in the ski school threads can read statements like this below and then take that person seriously, at all.

“... the biggest problem is that there are very few people worth taking lessons from. And by very few I mean maybe like 2 in this hemisphere, that I know of..”

Post #47 on “what keeps you from taking ski lessons” thread
 

trouts2

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@razie I don’t see the “two turns in there that fall apart”. The right footers seem slightly stronger than the left footers. After the first few right footers he seems to widen the skis a bit but that is not a big deal. On the two left footers at 11 and 12 seconds the inside leg seems to move up but those look like they are due to terrain bumps. The last three turns don’t seem as tight C’s from the apex to the traverse like he is headed to a gates more down downhill than the prior gates. Those seem like he is tired or letting up versus making mistakes. Looks like nice skiing to me. I don’t see any fall apart. Where does he fall apart?
 

martyg

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I maintain that pushing off the uphill ski is unnecessary and it can screw with your balance.

Your not pushing. You are weighting. The same as you would do in any turn.

Assuming that you are moving, for example, in transition - what I call the moment of neutrality with my students - the first thing that you want is an awareness of that new outside ski, and that means finding that uphill edge.

A number of drills exist for just that purpose.

I never teach jump turns, but focus on pivot slips. I want my skis to be on he snow on a steep slope. I want to know, centimeter by centimeter, what the snow under my feet feels like.
 

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