Wedge Christie feedback

[Mike King]

By the way, I think this is all pretty pointless since we don't teach students to do a perfect wedge christie. But learning to do a wedge-christy by the book does show the examiners that you are willing to go through weeping and gnashing of teeth for their approval. They will reward you if you can do it.

That's one way to look at it, but another is that the wedge christie exhibits flaws in your default movement patterns that affect other elements in your skiing. I've not seen video of @karlo's normal skiing, but I suspect that many of the movement patterns that are exhibited in his wedge christie are present there as well. The release of the ski through inclination rather than ankle and lower leg tipping, upper body rotation, and shoving the skis away from him. The wedge christie is a painful task to learn largely because it requires you to fix other elements of your skiing.

Of course, one can be a perfectly functional skier without (more) ideal technique. One can even teach lower levels of skiing without more ideal technique. The blended tasks, of which the wedge christie is one, do show whether you can take the 3 skills and 5 fundamentals and blend them to achieve more ski performance. So, learning to do a passing wedge christie, while it might not have much application per se in ski instruction, does help on the path to learning movement patterns that result in higher degrees of ski performance. But the real question is why are you doing this at all? Is it because you want to teach skiing at the highest levels? Is it because you want to become a better skier? Or is it because you want a free pass and a bunch of folk to hang out with?

There may be easier ways that are more fun to become a better skier than going through the certification process. And those ways might even be quicker as you don't have to fill your brain with a bunch of baggage that might not matter to you (like MA, teaching, etc.).

 

[LiquidFeet]

You talking to me there Mike, or Karlo?

Whether or not to work for a higher cert is a big decision for anybody doing this stuff. I've got the LII, and have been working towards the LIII. I can probably pass the LIII MA and the teaching. I would probably pass the lower level demos, and I've got some of the stupid human tricks down pat. But hop turns, one-footed skiing (on my right foot), and aggressive bump skiing are going to kill my chances. I'm working on the bump skiing because I want that for myself with a passion, and will eventually get there. I'm working on the right one-footed skiing; I'm still working on the right boot to get it adjusted appropriately for my anatomy and once that's done I'll be as good on it as I am currently on the left. But by the time I've got the aggro-bump skiing and the one-foot thing going well, I'll be even older (as in, OLD). Hop turns are just not going to happen; my heart races now when I try even though I'm pretty fit.

But I don't care a bit about hop turns. So... nope, I'm no longer going for LIII. Where I'll be teaching next year it won't alter the assignments I get, so there's no longer any reason to up the cert.

 

[Mike King]

My questions about motivation were directed to those of us in the cert process confronting our motivations, objectives, and desires. I’m personally not sure I’ll ever go for my level 3 even though I’m still attending cert clinics. The reason? I’m old and likely no longer have the athleticism necessary to pass and some of the tasks, such as switch railroad tracks and hop turns, aggravate my chronic injuries. I started this process to improve my skiing and I wanted to measure that by skiing at the level 3 standard. My skiing has improved markedly, and tasks such as the outside ski drill, White pass and javelin turns, have helped and blended tasks, like the wedge Christie and basic parallel, are and were important in learning the blend/dirt of skiing and measuring my progress.

Thinking back on the process and the amount of time and effort required to learn some maneuvers, the Wedge Christie being a prime example, I thought it might be useful to others and perhaps @karlo, to think about what your motivations are and question whether the certification process is the most efficient way to achieve your objectives. That’s the point of the second portion of the above post.

 

[Kneale Brownson]

Right on, Mike. Whether you wish to have a cert or not, the work toward it can improve you skiing. We older folks don't need the " stupid human tricks" maneuvers like hops and multiple turns on one foot to benefit from actual skiing activities like the wedge christie.

 

[LiquidFeet]

What I really want to do is ballet skiing. One-footed spins and such, not pole flips or aerials. Flat 360s in the bumps. Slow dog noodle - yeah!!!!!

 

[James]

What a nightmare of a trail to do wedge christies on, the "Take 3" trail.
Too crowded, too narrow, too steep, and with mild exposure on the left to boot. Hell for a student. You should pipe up if this was offered in an exam that the trail was totally inappropriate and dangerous.

If you went on a flatish trail, and skied slow parallel almost to the point of a stall, that's a good way to do a wedge christie. Except in your case since you stem every turn, it likely would still be a stem christie.

Learn this about "matching" vs "closing". Slow things down. Most instructors go too fast when doing wedges or wedge christies.

 

[Kneale Brownson]

What I really want to do is ballet skiing. One-footed spins and such, not pole flips or aerials. Flat 360s in the bumps. Slow dog noodle - yeah!!!!!

Admirable ambitions, LF, for which the skills in a wedge christie would be useful

 

[LiquidFeet]

I've got the flat 360s. Wondering how a one-foot spin is related to a wedge christie.

By the way, I am not arguing that wedge christies are not revealing of problematic movement patterns in one's personal skiing. They certainly can be. The stupid human tricks are meant to reveal weaknesses, right? Learning to do those tricks because an exam requires them does improve one's overall versatility.

Showing off under the chair skiing on one ski, or skiing from inside edge to inside edge, or doing Royal Christies and the Charleston are all fun for sure. I would not show off my perfect wedge christie, however, under the chair.

 

[JESinstr]

What a nightmare of a trail to do wedge christies on, the "Take 3" trail.
Too crowded, too narrow, too steep, and with mild exposure on the left to boot. Hell for a student. You should pipe up if this was offered in an exam that the trail was totally inappropriate and dangerous.

This was my exact thoughts as well. Yet how many instructors routinely put students into improper situations and then are puzzled at why learning does not take place.

 

[Kneale Brownson]

Gotta pay attention to the five "Ts" of instruction: Task, Terrain, Traffic, Tactics, and Timing.

 

[karlo]

but I suspect that many of the movement patterns that are exhibited in his wedge christie are present there as well.

Interesting. The progression I'm on is starting from I perceive WC is, and step by step get there. So, even before first MA video, I loosened up in the upper body, and brought my hips forward, both on account of feedback from examiners at the exam. Then, from feedback here, I widened stance and lost the backpack. From the latest feedback, I intend to do less upper body rotation, which should address leaning and bracing, and keep my feet at constant stance width, which should take care of stemming. I think I am too far along, but I wonder what it would have been like to start with a video of my normal skiing, and get advice from that point.

why are you doing this at all? Is it because you want to teach skiing at the highest levels? Is it because you want to become a better skier? Or is it because you want a free pass and a bunch of folk to hang out with?

Originally, it was to share the experience with my daughter, being first year instructors last year. But, I had a blast teaching. The main thing now is, I would like to be a better instructor. What kind of instructing? I'd like to take folks from intermediate to advanced, as well as advanced skiers to expert offpiste skiing. At my age, I don't have time to learn the progressions and methods of teaching through years of experience. I am following the path of certification to learn as much as I can quickly, from the reading, from talking to other experienced candidates, trainers, examiners. In the locker room, I make a bad socializer. I'd rather talk about the day's teaching experience, not how crazy the day was, but what the teaching challenges were and how they were addressed.

What are my fantasy gigs? Get learners to the point of appreciating and skiing the Slides at Whiteface, even when icy. Taking groups on offpiste tours (I am no where close to being able to backcountry guide) in Japan, where I have been doing it in Hakuba.

BTW, I wish I had learned earlier, for the sake of raising my kids, about how different folks can learn in different ways, VAK and the rest. And, I wish I had been able to apply professional practices in raising my kids, maximizing fun content in the learning process. But, never too late. They will always be my kids!

 

[James]

So, even before first MA video, I loosened up in the upper body, and brought my hips forward, both on account of feedback from examiners at the exam. Then, from feedback here, I widened stance and lost the backpack. From the latest feedback, I intend to do less upper body rotation, which should address leaning and bracing, and keep my feet at constant stance width, which should take care of stemming. I think I am too far along, but I wonder what it would have been like to start with a video of my normal skiing, and get advice from that point.

These are all things - outcomes. You're still missing the basic movement. Stance width has little to do with anything here actually. Obviously, a very narrow stance doesn't allow independent leg rotation. A very wide stance puts skis on opposing edges, makes turning difficult, or requires skilled use of ankles and lower legs (cowboy turns).
Somewhere between too narrow and too wide.

It's great you want to eliminate the full body rotation. But that intent, and "keeping a constant stance width", well gee, why not just put on a straight jacket? Sounds horrible. Eliminating a stem through a stint in prison. I suppose it can work.

You're still missing the fundamental piece though. Releasing the old turn, steering the new inside ski. Matching instead of closing. Review Bob's diagram posted above. You can't guide the inside ski without releasing it.

Focus on those things. You have an ingrained habit of pushing the outside ski. Focus on guiding the inside. Even if it's a pure carved turn. Balance on the outside.
Left tip left to go left.

Nice statement of where you want to take it.

 

[karlo]

Learn this about "matching" vs "closing". Slow things down. Most instructors go too fast when doing wedges or wedge christies.

This is excellent, thank you! The illustration really helps. So, Take 4 will eliminate upper body rotation, constant stance width, and intent to edge and steer both skis.

Oh, and flatter terrain. Take 3 was fit in at end of day and was flattest available for what was left into town

 

[Mike King]

@karlo, make sure that @James’s absolution of stance width doesn’t wind up with you pushing the new outside ski to an edge. That’s a stem christie, not a Wedge Christie.

Mike

 

[James]

@karlo, make sure that @James’s absolution of stance width doesn’t wind up with you pushing the new outside ski to an edge. That’s a stem christie, not a Wedge Christie.

Mike

Don't worry, he's placing himself in confinement.

 

[wutangclan]

So, Take 4 will eliminate upper body rotation, constant stance width, and intent to edge and steer both skis.

IMHO that's too much to think about for now. As a development tactic, you should focus on one thing only: RELEASING the edge of the new inside (old outside) ski. Everything else will follow.

Now, I was wondering if you didn't understand what this meant. But in this other post, you describe exactly what needs to be done!!! And I quote:

Then, gradually release edge angle and pressure at finish of turn. Any suddenness of edge angle and pressure will more likely cause the skis to lose their grip.

Deliberate loss of grip by the new inside ski is exactly how you initiate a Wedge Christie turn ... do you get that?

 

[François Pugh]

The wedge Christie demonstrates your understanding of ski movements. You might want to increase your understanding with a different exercise. Standing with skis across the fall line, release the edges and let the skis rotate and fall down the fall line as they wish. Repeat from the other side. Repeat ad nausea.

 

[karlo]

IMHO that's too much to think about for now. As a development tactic, you should focus on one thing only:

It won't be a problem. I'm skiing with my wife today and will have lots of time

Actually both skis will rotate down the hill when released (see pivot slip). The downhill ski will require some minimal effort (control of rotation) to keep it from pointing down hill as fast as the outside (uphill) ski thus producing the wedge.

Standing with skis across the fall line, release the edges and let the skis rotate and fall down the fall line

Ok. I've been setting an early edge on my new outside ski to the point of initiating at the tip, then smearing it, which may be what is causing the stem effect? I'll try the simple drop down the fall line.

 

[wutangclan]

Ok. I've been setting an early edge on my new outside ski to the point of initiating at the tip, then smearing it, which may be what is causing the stem effect? I'll try the simple drop down the fall line.

YES!

 

[James]

YES!

I've been setting an early edge on my new outside ski to the point of initiating at the tip, then smearing it, which may be what is causing the stem effect?

Yeah, stop that. It's not an effect it's a movement you're doing. Just balance on the outside ski, think about the inside ski. No pushing.