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LiquidFeet

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@François Pugh,
You just wrote: "So instead of folk being left with a stem habit and a don't go there attitude, we have the wedge progression that leaves too many folk with a permanent default pivot in every turn."

Nicely stated. We've traded the stem for the pivot entry. I've never thought of it that way. Thank you! That makes perfect sense. But it's not that clear-cut in real life.

Today I watched what seemed like a whole mountainful of novices and intermediates ski around on a rather difficult variable snow surface. It hasn't snowed in weeks, but it has rained and frozen and then thawed and frozen again several times, and it's been very warm for a while too. So we had glare ice covered loosely by two weeks of shaved and minced and re-shaved-and-minced glare ice that looks like snow but doesn't exactly act like it, along with a few ice balls. These skiers exhibited all kinds of non-expert ways of getting down the hill. Lots of stemming, lots of leaning in, lots of bracing, some pivoting, some lifting the new inside ski tip up in the air, some using upper body rotation, and almost every one of them is skiing at least a little aft. Because of the conditions du jour, not too many were intentionally scaring themselves silly for the thrill of it. Oh, and lots of yard sales.

I think I can say with confidence that almost all of them were having a ton of fun.
 
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karlo

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I focused on slight flex of inside leg to soften the inside ski, moving COM inward to edge the outside ski

To do that, I angulated. In fact, it felt kinda cool, kinda like turns I would make when I used to telemark. Of course, I couldn't bend my inside knee and pick up my inside heel.

did you use leg steering or upper body steering?

So, I did neither. Little rotation of the outside ski. Rotated the inside to match after fall line.

I spoke to one examiner. The feedback is my COM is aft; check my boots. I know when I am aft. So, that one didn't make sense. However, I would agree that my waist, knee and ankle articulation are different than most. I think I may look aft, but my knees and ankles are bent in such a way that pulls my feet under me. I once had an instructor who thought I was aft, until he looked at a video he took and noticed where my feet are.

Don't angulate! It is alright if momentum produces some extra force on the outside edge as compared to the force on the inside edge, but for heaven's sake don't augment it with a "negative" movement to try and go down hill faster!

I completed turns to control speed. But, if I don't angulate, I don't get how one puts the outside ski on edge, AND move COM inwards (downhill) at initiation.

@Magi, you are right. Tango, not rumba I really meant latin dancing - the hips, the leg extensions and flexes. Doing the wedge turn now, not wedge Christie, I was having fun doing that to pressure one edge over the other. :)
 

Chris V.

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I was quite surprised to find the much maligned snow-plough progression had been replaced, and apparently for valid reasons; the reasons did not mesh with my experience. Maybe I'm the exception that proves the rule, maybe that north-western European woman who wrote the book I read containing the snow-plough progression had a different view than north american instructors did. Maybe I was the exception that proves the rule. Who knows. It seems the snow-plough was leaving many many skiers (and I'm sure the ski instructors see much more evidence than my anecdotal exceptions) with a few bad habits, like a permanent stem habit, and it turns out a negative "don't go there braking" habit. I personally feel that second one was all due to the way in which the instructor viewed and taught the snow plough and snow plow turn. The book I read from, the physics of a snow plough throwing snow one way created a force moving the snow plough the other way was emphasized. A snow plow was not a means of slowing down. It was first and foremost a means of turning. To make an effective snow plow turn, you put more weight on the outside ski and tipped that ski to a greater edge so it would win the fight and make you go in your desired direction. If you did not have one ski edged or weighted more than the other, yes, you would slow down because the skis were fighting each other and just skidding along, but that was just a side effect. If you understood that the snow-plough turn was a turn, then everything fell rapidly into place and by doing the christie at the end of the turn you quickly realized that having two edges making you turn in the same direction was better than one, and dropped the stem by your third day on skis so you didn't develop a stem habit.

However, many folk apparently took 17 beginner lessons in a row and they developed a bad stem habit. Many instructors, no doubt being concerned foremost with the safety of resort guests admonished them to slow down and chose the snow plough as the means do do so. Too bad. So sad, really. They cast the snow plough into the braking defensive movement mold, and vilified it.

The first thing to realize is that with modern skis, there is no fight. Or you should call off the fight. It's not a matter of making the left ski fight harder in order to create a right turn. It's just a matter of having the right ski stop fighting, and then ski shape and performance will create the turn. (As long as you don't fight it. And oh, boy, with many beginners, fight they will.)

It wasn't quite the same with old, straight skis. Whenever it starts storming, and the snow pack settles, I need to pull out my Olin Mark IV Comp IVs, and do some beginner turns, just to remind myself what it took.

They replaced it with the wedge. The wedge has a smaller V angle and a smaller tipping angle. It does not have much effect in terms of reducing speed, and thus can be differentiated in a positive way from the snow plough. The role of the inside edge of the outside ski in making you turn is not emphasized in the wedge. The snow plough quickly led to parallel carving because it emphasized using the edges of your skis; you learned that the ski wants to go along in the direction the edges are pointing. If it were taught correctly it also would not induce any "braking don't go there" attitude. However, it wasn't in many cases taught correctly, and there was no rush to get folks carving at high speeds (there's that safety thing again).

So instead of folk being left with a stem habit and a don't go there attitude, we have the wedge progression that leaves too many folk with a permanent default pivot in every turn.

On the plus side they (the ski instructors) took advantage of the opportunity of making sure the new method was taught without any negative attitude and banaished all "negative" movements to aid in this endeavour.

Except many ski instructors still don't teach it right, and still don't know how to teach it right. Unfortunately, I see it most any day of the week.

An exercise I like to go through with novice to lower advanced students is to explore the many ways of initiating a wedge turn. There must be 17 or more, I think. Going straight requires a perfect balance of forces. Any disturbance in the force will start some kind of turn. Typically, students have given no thought to this, and often can't even articulate what they themselves do to make transitions between turns. I challenge them to come up with as many ways of starting a wedge turn as they can. Then I give them several more. You can't make good choices until you know that you HAVE choices.
 
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karlo

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For all of you who are so kind with your time and advice and consideration of my challenge, here is a mini trip report.

The ski exam is two days, this Thursday and Friday at Windham Mountain. Thursday, Really warm. Maybe even in the low 50's. Very wet, slushy snow. Challenging for some tasks, like picking terrain for wedge Christies that is fast enough, and avoiding piles of slush for railroad tracks.

Friday. 12 inches overnight! 12 more by the time I leave the mountain! And, a regional power outage; lifts are down! There are 6 ski exam groups. Ours is led by an examiner from Windham. Everyone else is milling around wondering what to do. We head off to the learning zone and get in some powder wedge turns! Then, we hike up and go back down for some straight-line hops. Wedge Christie, we need steeper terrain, so we boot pack up higher, passing a patrolwoman who warns us, and three rec riders, not to go beyond where she can see us.

We get to the top of what we are limited to. The three rec riders are itching to go further; one has touring skis, the others snowboards. We turn and look down and she, the patrolwoman, is standing right there below us,,watching them like a hawk. The message is clear. Anyway, we get our turns in. And, because there is a Teaching Exam group doing Movement Analysis, they have gathered at the bottom, to do MA on us! They didn't have to lift one ski, nevermind a boot!

About 1:30, it is announced that the lifts will open. Here is a photo of the quad after having just opened. If you zoom in, you will see higher chairs unoccupied. Below, you will see the "lift line". That's the line, on a powder Friday at Windham Mountain!

WP_20180302_13_47_39_Pro.jpg
 
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François Pugh

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To do that, I angulated. In fact, it felt kinda cool, kinda like turns I would make when I used to telemark. Of course, I couldn't bend my inside knee and pick up my inside heel.



So, I did neither. Little rotation of the outside ski. Rotated the inside to match after fall line.

I spoke to one examiner. The feedback is my COM is aft; check my boots. I know when I am aft. So, that one didn't make sense. However, I would agree that my waist, knee and ankle articulation are different than most. I think I may look aft, but my knees and ankles are bent in such a way that pulls my feet under me. I once had an instructor who thought I was aft, until he looked at a video he took and noticed where my feet are.



I completed turns to control speed. But, if I don't angulate, I don't get how one puts the outside ski on edge, AND move COM inwards (downhill) at initiation.

@Magi, you are right. Tango, not rumba I really meant latin dancing - the hips, the leg extensions and flexes. Doing the wedge turn now, not wedge Christie, I was having fun doing that to pressure one edge over the other. :)

Outside ski on edge :eek:. Sacrilege! ogwink Forget about edging the outside ski (for this demo). It's not about teaching edging (that was the old evil snow-plough progression); it's about letting the skis do their thing, releasing them to start the new turn. Once you are in a wedge with the CoM centred, there will be enough edge engagement. The skis want to turn down hill. They will have enough momentum and rotational inertia to keep turning once you get pointed down the fall line. The very minimal edge from the wedge will be enough, and so subtle the skiers won't even know what's making them turn.

Good grief! If you start teaching beginners to use their edges, they will start carving everywhere at high speeds, out of control, a danger to themselves and others. Keep that edging business a trade secret!:D

Speaking of subtle, make sure, when you are letting the skis rotate into the turn as you go forward that you slowly allow that inside ski to slightly increase it's distance from the uphill ski. Let it sneak out there, as your CoM also goes down hill masking it's movement. Otherwise you will get a fail for brushing/stemming the inside ski.
 

john petersen

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what happens when a skier moves their upper body too far?

I like the fact that Josh asks this...and in part may be a hint to us instructors. There are different levels of controlled upper body rotation that are acceptable and some that are not, like those that take us out of dynamic balance or a stance (because of it) that needs over correction to start a new turn, ect....

I think its good to explore this very statement with students if it comes up because inefficient upper body rotation leads to over rotation and tail wash among other things.

I think nailing this down at the wedge and wedge christie level are important for us to identify and share, which is probably why we are focused on it, and it its on the radar at exams and in clinics, ect....

its all part of the "go" mentality....

yeah!

JP
 

john petersen

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Karlo, Love the pic from windham! some folks could not get to the mountain that day!....wait, Im only on page one....bear with me gang...on to page two....and Ill try not to comment until Ive finished getting through the rest of the thread!

JP

;)
 

john petersen

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whew...finally read the whole post...great stuff you guys.

Chris V points out that skis have evolved to a point where they help us turn...and they have evolved again several times since the late 90's and have even had a few recent evolutions.

The Snow Plow (or plough) came about thanks in some part to the formalization of ski technique in the Arlberg style of ski instruction among others back in the early 20th century. This was a result of finding ways to work with the equipment of the day in efficient ways. What was possible with binding designs and ski materials then was limited. We had to move in certain ways so the equipment stayed on our feet and attached to our lace-up leather ankle-high boots. Then we were able to use plastics, metals, wood cores, and various other fibrous materials to enhance the performance, durability, flexibility and designs of todays modern skis and along with those changes also came changes to our approach to the sport.

hang in there, this is on topic.....

I say this because I have a point that may shed just a little light on why we have come to treasure this movement pattern that includes the christie family.
It used to be absolutely necessary to make a turn. Now, more importantly, it gives us a stable platform to learn from and some folks need it more than, or for longer than others. (Thinking of a wedge christie progression right now, but thats another story.....)

We can manipulate todays equipment in ways never possible in yesteryear...and have shaped the equipment to help us perform, or at least feel like we are performing high speed maneuvers at much lower speeds. Shaped skis give us the ability to leave pure trenches in the snow at relatively slow speeds compared to "old straight boards"...to get those old boards to carve a turn took a lot of strength and nerve and the desire to go FAST!....

To get us up to speed quickly, so we can carve more slowly, (irony alert) I think its even more important to have a "go" mentality right from the start. experienced instructors know this and know what it means at all levels of skiing....and how to apply it at all levels of skiing. the christie family is important because it is the bridge between convergence and divergence, wedge and parallel, beginner and advanced. We are trying to set our students up for success so they can develop movement patterns that they can take with them when we are not around.

The christie can happen naturally. Try it. let it happen. pick terrain where this works for you. I used to think that i had to MAKE the christie happen. You really dont. the only thing you really have to do is remember to form a wedge again in the direction of the next turn....and LET the christie happen. If you up the terrain, you will feel yourself reacting to more forces and a steeper slope, but the christie can still happen naturally....

I think T2 mentioned practicing it until you cannot get it wrong...you will know when you are nearing that point when it starts to feel natural and not forced.
lastly, some of us (guys, maybe?) tend to get very athletic with all this stuff....feeling like we have to MAKE them happen...once you have the movement pattern down, see if you can LET it happen.....

JP
 
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karlo

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Finally, I have a couple videos of myself attempting to do a Wedge Christie! I've made some adjustments since the exam - less stiff, more upright. I think the movements are the same as before, except, here, I am using a ski with camber and some tip and tail rocker, rather than a fully rockered ski at the exam. Any MA is appreciated. What needs improvement? Anything I am doing that will for sure result in a fail? Thanks.


 
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Kneale Brownson

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Does "fully rockered" equal twin tips? Do not take an exam on twin tips.
 

Mike King

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@karlo, I know you've been working on this, but you aren't there yet. Do you notice how you are pushing the outside ski away from you to start the turn, then dragging the inside ski toward the outside ski to match? That isn't the ski performance that an examiner will be looking for. A passing wedge christie will exhibit steering of the skis to form the wedge and to match -- a rotary movement, not a pressure movement.

It looks like you are trying to perform this maneuver from a very narrow stance and that is almost an impossibility. Get into a stance that is wider -- about hip width apart. Your stance width shouldn't need to change during the task, and if you can master the wedge christie with a hip width stance that doesn't change, you will have a stellar wedge christie.

Practice your inside edge release with, say, garlands. Find a gentle slope and traverse with the objective of getting the inside ski (downhill ski in the traverse) flat. What do you have to do to get that ski flat? Pay attention to the ankle, lower leg, and the position of the hip over the foot. This exercise will be good for more than just the wedge christie: it will help you in your basic parallel and all of your performance skiing as well.

Once you've got the ability to flatten the inside ski, add rotary to steer the outside ski into the wedge. Continue to steer both skis down the hill. After the fall line, steer the inside ski to match the outside ski.

The wedge christie is a blended maneuver, meaning that all 5 of the fundamentals are present. That being said, the two most important to a successful task are rotary (the steering of the inside and outside ski) and tipping (the edge release of the old outside/new inside ski). Practice with that intent, and you'll be on your way.

BTW, it took me a couple of months of focused practice to get my wedge christie to the point it would pass the level 2 exam. I'm not sure I could do so now....

Mike
 

Mike King

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One other thought: loose the pack. It throws your fore/aft balance off. You won't be wearing a pack when you take the exam (I hope). It also looks like you are too far forward on the skis--quit crushing the front of the boot. You should have contact with the front of the boot, but don't use the boot to hold your anatomy up!

Mike
 

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@karlo, @Mike King hits it on the head. My recommendations are simple, relax and just do it. I know that sounds stupid, here’s what I mean.

From that wider stance that Mike recommends, as you are gliding across the hill just move your body in the direction of the new turn. (Down the hill, slight bit forward; diagonal a bit.) Lengthen your uphill leg, shorten your downhill leg. This will release and flatten the downhill ski and engage the edge of the uphill ski. Don’t twist your feet. Allow the edged uphill ski to ‘hook up’ naturally, it will start to turn, let it. This will create a spontaneous wedge in relation to the flat downhill ski. Let the turn develop until your facing down the fall line. Then gently rotate the inside ski until it is parallel as you continue to turn. Lather, rinse, repeat.

Notice, these are essentially the same moves as a parallel turn. The only difference is that in the parallel turn both skis release and engage at the same time and the speed and intensity are higher. A wedge christi is a parallel turn with a bit of a training wheel.
 
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Josh Matta

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Karlo those are stem christys
 

Nancy Hummel

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An examiner told me with regard to wedge christies: “speed is not your friend”. Slow it down. Turn your skis up the hill at the end of the turn.

I agree with Mike. Lose the backpack. It is not helping your fore/aft balance. Practice the progression Mike suggested.
 

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@karlo, @Mike King hits it on the head. My recommendations are simple, relax and just do it. I know that sounds stupid, here’s what I mean.



Notice, these are essentially the same moves as a parallel turn. The only difference is that in the parallel turn both skis release and engage at the same time and the speed and intensity are higher. A wedge christi is a parallel turn with a bit of a training wheel.

The reason the wedge forms is because the outside ski turns faster than the inside ski. Add a little speed or steeper hill angle and the WC becomes more difficult. That is why lower level students who use proper mechanics often skip through the WC phase and make parallel turns.
 
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karlo

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That being said, the two most important to a successful task are rotary (the steering of the inside and outside ski) and tipping (the edge release of the old outside/new inside ski).

Isn't that contradictory to the following statements?

Don’t twist your feet. Allow the edged uphill ski to ‘hook up’ naturally, it will start to turn, let it

The reason the wedge forms is because the outside ski turns faster than the inside ski.

Anyway, I will do it with a wider stance, and get rid of the pack, then go from there. I'll upload a video of that as soon as I have one.
 
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karlo

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Does "fully rockered" equal twin tips?

No. It has a flat tail. Absolutely no camber though. Just standing on it, the tips and tails are not on snow. One has to really tip it over to get on edge, then it rips. Rotating while on the flat of the ski is like rotating on a pinhead. I did have difficulties. Like railroad tracks. Had to lay it over a lot more than i would have liked to carve a turn. Definitely not the ideal ski to use. Made it unnecessarily harder. Won't use it again for exam prep and for exam.
 

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