Vail's Latest Acquisitions: Okemo, Sunapee, Crested Butte, and Stevens Pass

[Tricia]

Well I guess every property had it's own specifics. In terms of Okemo, they still owned the physical lodges afaik.

Vail has a lease on operations for Northstar till 2027. So, you're saying EPR, which bought from CNL, owns the physical structures? And is acting like a slum lord.

CNL and EPR both.
Vail (Northstar) had maintenance crews that do the usual stuff, but major repairs are supposed to be done by the property owner. Obviously I'm not privy to the conversations, but the small amount of intel I got was that maintenance at N* could "patch it" but the real fix had to be done by the owner.
I heard that there were several other issues like this in the village, but I don't know first hand.

 

[SShore]

I challenge you all to boycott Vail. Seriously, F*ck this company. They ultimately are responsible for the death of EpicSki. They are buying up ski areas and ruining the soul of skiing as they do it. They pay their employees, at the ski areas and in the corporate offices, below livable and industry standard wages because they think season pass and the "privilege" of working for them is worth it. They are a faceless, soulless, money making machine that doesn't give a f*ck what happens to this sport and the communities that support it as long as they can report good numbers to the street. I know some of you guys don't care about this because it just means you get more pass options and you really suck for that.

While I'm no fan of Vail, I think this is somewhat of a weak argument against them. Employment is a two way street. Their employees obviously think the season pass and the "privilege" of working for them is of value or they would take their talents elsewhere and make more money. Darth Vailder doesn't have a light saber to their heads making them work for them.

 

[Stev]

Puzzled as I bought a cheap Sierra at Tahoe Senior pass only for the Powder Alliance tie -especially for Stevens Pass and several other Idaho & PNW areas.
(plan to ski little or none at Sierra Tahoe) I'd think Stevens Pass would have to honor Powder Alliance next year as they said previously.

The Powder Alliance has been a major motivation for my buying a Sierra at Tahoe pass. Close to half of my days on that pass have been at other resorts.
I still haven't skied at Stevens Pass though. There is a possibility that I'll have two different passes (Sierra at Tahoe and Epic) that will be good at Stevens Pass next season.

Vail did treat me very well back in 2010/2011 when they purchased Northstar (but not Sierra.) At the time I had both a Heavenly pass (already owned by Vail) and a Double-Whammy pass (Sierra at Tahoe and Northstar.) Since Vail would honor either pass at all three resorts, they refunded the cost of one of my passes and I was able to ski at all three for half of what I originally spent for that season.

 

[jmeb]

Their employees obviously think the season pass and the "privilege" of working for them is of value or they would take their talents elsewhere and make more money.

The problem is when one entity becomes so large that they can dictate the wage market across an entire industry. Vail is approaching that in many markets. Labor isn't nearly as mobile as capital -- what you're recommending is people just relocate their lives because a massively succesful biz doesn't want to pay living wages. . Yes, employees can take their talents elsewhere -- but if those talents are ski related that doesn't help much.

For the lucky few who can work someplace like Aspen ski school, it's fine. But as wages continue to not keep up with COL in resort areas, don't be surprised when the quality of workers go down because the only people who can afford to do it are kids without responsibilities.

 

[Philpug]

I will be interested in seeing what Alterra does to comes back with. SnowBasin, which is on the MCP or where Snowbird is just 5 days on the Alterra pass to come fully aboard with a full pas a la what they did with Okemo.

 

[StuckonI70]

Oh well. I can't say I'm surprised, but it is what it is. No tears are shed for the locals or the "vibe" of the valley that might change.
Crested Butte is an amazing mountain. No operator can change that fact.
Vail might grease the skis to get the Teo Drainage expansion going. That will also open up 4th, 5th and 6th bowls, more extreme terrain!

 

[tball]

WTF even is a bubble chair?

It's retro! Copper had a bubble chair when it opened. This was the old F lift where the Eagle is now.


Credit chairlift.org: http://www.chairlift.org/copper.html

Look how wide that trail was without the superpipe! Change happens.

 

[David Chaus]

I will be interested in seeing what Alterra does to comes back with. SnowBasin, which is on the MCP or where Snowbird is just 5 days on the Alterra pass to come fully aboard with a full pas a la what they did with Okemo.

Maybe Snowbasin and Sun Valley, both?
Bachelor, Whitefish, Sun Peaks, Big White, Silver Star?

There are not that many non-Epic/non-Ikon destinations remaining...depending on your defintiation of “destination.” So yes, increasing the number of days of “limited days” or making them unlimited at those destinations is one of the few ways to sweeten the deal.

 

[James]

It's retro! Copper had a bubble chair when it opened. This was the old F lift where the Eagle is now.

View attachment 47144
Credit chairlift.org: http://www.chairlift.org/copper.html

Look how wide that trail was without the superpipe! Change happens.

Wow, pretty cool. I suppose it didn't work because there was too much wind resistance and not enough weight?
Next thing you'll tell me is Copper had a Chondola.
Chondolas make sense when you have non skiers/boarders who need to get somewhere or for downloading out of areas that are too difficult to ski for the clientele. Verbier has one for example where to get out of the area for kids is usually too difficult unless the ski Red trails well.

 

[surfsnowgirl]

Mont Orford in eastern quebec has a chondola too. I didn't understand the purpose.

I'm a little bummed we didn't get the epic local pass.

 

[fatbob]

Not sure Alterra can sweeten the Ikon much by way of extra days for Base pass holders without alienating those who have already sprung for full Ikon.

Stevens isn't really threatened by tourist hordes but it seems a decent play for switching loyalties locally if a couple of decent trips to Whistler are the payoff.

 

[Average Joe]

While I'm no fan of Vail, I think this is somewhat of a weak argument against them. Employment is a two way street. Their employees obviously think the season pass and the "privilege" of working for them is of value or they would take their talents elsewhere and make more money. Darth Vailder doesn't have a light saber to their heads making them work for them.

Puzzling that Core channels his anger against a corporation by blaming those who choose to work and ski at a Vail owned property.
Ski work is low pay high reward employment. You can’t support a family on the salary, it’s called “ski bumming” for a reason.
Those Vail execs in Broomfield are hardly trapped in a slave like environment: au contraire their location gives them lots of options.
And the pass holders, we’ll they seem to be happy in Stowe and anywhere else that Epic cut their costs in half.

 

[Started at 53]

Alterra just threw the DV Season Pass a bit of a bone, they added a free Ikon Base pass for DV Season Passes.

It has zero value to me, so we are not buying season passes, we are gonna buy the weekday passes instead. They raised the Season Pass price 15%, I can find other activities on the weekends.

I think they have some figuring out to do, certainly they miscalculated a bit and must be seeing very low Season Pass numbers as they just did this today.

Alterra might need to rethink their pass stuff. Double edged sword for sure when we are at a currently (supposedly) limited skier per day resort.

 

[markojp]

Airbnb is a major factor in turning everywhere into a destination.

Now all you need is a pass. Oh, wait...

Clearly you haven't been to WA to ski.


One nice thing for Stevens though might be the capital influx to replace several old Riblet chairs.

 

[wallyk]

I will agree and disagree with what you are saying and what @Core2 is also saying the difference between right and wrong in what Vail is doing is not black and white but very grey, I would say 80% and 10% black and 10% white...and the 80% might be low depending on who you talk to and what their view is. On one side, offering passes at $500-700 is getting skiers on the slopes but to say that a $179 day ticket is also doing the same, I have to question that. The same question can be said with charging close to $1,000 for a private lesson. I do think Vail does a lot for the industry so what is left to do?.

Totally agree with the cost of lift ticks and trying to force skiers into buying a pass versus day or multi-day ticket options feels wrong. The cost of privates and the associated comp structure for the professionals is close to piracy. I don't understand that aspect of resort management and probably wont. Maybe supply and demand, feels more like price gouging.

I'm not inside the "industry" and don't know the people running the businesses, but it seemed like when Apollo purchased Vail that changes were a come'n. This is not a bad thing either as Apollo brought Vail out of bankruptcy.

What seems to be a catalyst for the type of changes that threaten the ability to impact the character of the local ski industry, and is a concern of many members here, seems to be rooted not from Vail but from the persistent low interest rates which has attributed to increasing personal disposable income, and increasing operating costs aka insurance premiums. IMHO the low interest rate environment has helped push prices higher as demand to own at or near the ski area forced increased development which raised prices and local taxes as local realestate valuations increased. This has helped push people out or changed the dynamics of the local towns.

It's hard to picture Vail being held responsible for the changing local town dynamics. Have to allocate some blame on local town councils for allowing increased building permits, and increased taxes. When I travel I always get two sides of a story: One from a local shuttle operator whose house price has increased by x times and the person who is shut out of ever buying.....

Sorry for the ramble @Philpug but I look at these changes and see both sides. I miss the old days of skiing, appreciate my locally owned hill (Welch Village) and am trying to respect/understand the future and what this means to a sport that I cherish.

 

[LewyM]

Interesting stuff and I am not surprised about Stevens. I thought that it was odd that the first round of the Epic v. IKON battle completely excluded the Seattle market - not as a destination but as an opportunity to lock in resort skiing for a pretty large base of local season pass holders at otherwise independent mountains.

As a Crystal skier, I will reserve judgement. If Stevens can be used on the Edge card I might go back to buying an Edge card by default - that would be an interesting proposition, as Whistler lost me last year with the 5 day minimum (instead of the old 1 or 3 day + model). Because of the Edge card tie-in, I doubt that this moves any core Crystal skiers to Stevens - and Stevens has neither the infrastructure capacity nor inbounds terrain to absorb much more local business.

My take is that it is only a matter of time when Crystal joins IKON. IKON was the only relationship that made sense for Crystal from the get go, and Crystal was always the perfect PNW partner for Alterra as it punches all of IKON's boxes except for glam on-mountain housing. But suddenly, IKON needs Crystal more than Crystal needs IKON. IKON needs Crystal's skiers - it doesn't really need the mountain as a destination any more than it did before. While Vail's acquisition of Whistler already pressured the fact that IKON lacked a Seattle area feeder, adding Stevens makes the pressure acute. So unless Alterra wants to write off the entire Seattle market, they need Crystal on IKON. Aligning with Crystal (and re-aligning Crystal with its Boyne ex-family of Snoqualmie and Big Sky) would be a powerful counter to Epic's PNW strategy and make the fight over the PNW interior very interesting.

 

[Seldomski]

My primary beef with Vail is the cost for lessons. I guess people keep taking them at the current cost, so they keep raising the cost until they see participation drop? I'm curious to know where that $$ goes exactly. It makes me think that some sort of tele-present instruction will become the standard in the future.

 

[New2]

The coverage I've seen all mentions Vail bought Stevens Pass from Och-Ziff for $67 million... but no mention of arriving at any sort of deal with current operator Karl Kapuscinski. The past discussion about CNL/Och-Ziff indicated that the operators retain significant rights. Does that mean that Kapuscinski will continue operating Stevens Pass? Seems unlikely, since they're already talking about merging the passes. Maybe there'll be a follow-up announcement about Vail buying him out at both Stevens Pass and Mountain High?

Puzzled as I bought a cheap Sierra at Tahoe Senior pass only for the Powder Alliance tie -especially for Stevens Pass and several other Idaho & PNW areas.
(plan to ski little or none at Sierra Tahoe) I'd think Stevens Pass would have to honor Powder Alliance next year as they said previously.

Vail's FAQ mentions that Stevens Pass passholders who elect to keep their pass will still enjoy all the advertised benefits. And I can't imagine them expecting other areas to give Stevens' customers the benefits if they weren't planning to reciprocate. But Karl Kapuscinski and his employee John McColly have been the driving forces behind Powder Alliance, from what I understand, so the longer-term future of the effort might be up in the air.

 

[dbostedo]

My primary beef with Vail is the cost for lessons. I guess people keep taking them at the current cost, so they keep raising the cost until they see participation drop? I'm curious to know where that $$ goes exactly. It makes me think that some sort of tele-present instruction will become the standard in the future.

But Vail's lesson cost is not all that different than some other major resorts (although certainly not all of them). The bigger complaint I've heard about Vail lessons is in how much of that winds up in the hands of the instructors.

I paid nearly $800 for a full day lesson at Aspen a few years ago... I think Vail's were maybe $50 more at the time. But Aspen has a rep for paying its instructors relatively well.

Aspen's current (past season) price is $895 for 6 hours. Unfortunately the Vail website won't show me this past season's rates, but I think it's just a little more.

 

[SShore]

My primary beef with Vail is the cost for lessons. I guess people keep taking them at the current cost, so they keep raising the cost until they see participation drop? I'm curious to know where that $$ goes exactly. It makes me think that some sort of tele-present instruction will become the standard in the future.

I was talking with a ski instructor one year at Vail when we were there over Christmas and he told me most of his private lessons were just people the had a lot of money and didn't want to wait in lift lines. What is big money to most of us is chump change to some.