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wallyk

Would rather be ski'n
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The MinnieApple
I challenge you all to boycott Vail. Seriously, F*ck this company. They ultimately are responsible for the death of EpicSki. They are buying up ski areas and ruining the soul of skiing as they do it. They pay their employees, at the ski areas and in the corporate offices, below livable and industry standard wages because they think season pass and the "privilege" of working for them is worth it. They are a faceless, soulless, money making machine that doesn't give a fuck what happens to this sport and the communities that support it as long as they can report good numbers to the street. I know some of you guys don't care about this because it just means you get more pass options and you really suck for that.

There is so much wrong here, it's impossible to start........but some good points. Have to ask why you think that Vail could care less about the sport of skiing? Their entire business model is based on the sport and business of skiing. It's in their best interest to care about the sport of skiing. They want as many people as possible skiing. I don't see how that's a bad thing for the entire global industry.

Vail shouldn't be scary......what should be scary to the sport of skiing is another US/world recession.
 

Wasatchman

over the hill
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And yet I pay half for the my season pass at Vail in 2018 than I did back in 2015 ;)

You also probably pay 2x the price for food and ski lessons, and 50% more for lodging than 2015. And the pass prices won't stay down here forever. Once they have decided their empire building is complete and have thoroughly destroyed much of the competition, then they will jack up the season pass price ogwink
 

LKLA

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You also probably pay 2x the price for food and ski lessons, and 50% more for lodging than 2015. And the pass prices won't stay down here forever. Once they have decided their empire building is complete and have thoroughly destroyed much of the competition, then they will jack up the season pass price ogwink

Welcome to planet Earth.
 

David Chaus

Beyond Help
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I challenge you all to boycott Vail. Seriously, F*ck this company. They ultimately are responsible for the death of EpicSki. They are buying up ski areas and ruining the soul of skiing as they do it. They pay their employees, at the ski areas and in the corporate offices, below livable and industry standard wages because they think season pass and the "privilege" of working for them is worth it. They are a faceless, soulless, money making machine that doesn't give a f*ck what happens to this sport and the communities that support it as long as they can report good numbers to the street. I know some of you guys don't care about this because it just means you get more pass options and you really suck for that.

Seems a pretty harsh criticism. I dunno, Stevens has been owned by two different REITs recently, which IMHO are more soulless, money-sucking entities than Vail, which at least is focused on making sure most of its customers are satisfied. Stevens has (somehow) managed to keep it’s soul. I’m still not sure I know what that means, other than a sense that people have a good time, which is somehow completely different than having a good time somewhere else.


I’m more wary of extra crowds, and the price increase from the current Stevens season pass to an Epic pass. If they keep the local pass option as well as an Epic pass, I’ll be happy enough.

Honestly I don’t think most Epic pass holders will flock to Stevens; more likely Stevens locals who will have an Epic pass will go to Whistler, and maybe also travel to other Vail properties. Kicking Horse and Fernie are not that far. And I bet I could have a good time at Beaver Creek, Vail, Keystone and Park City/Canyons if I really wanted to.
 

Tricia

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In @Core2's defense, we've all seen changes in our favorite places when Vail sweeps in.
From someone who had been a pass holder, employee, and contractor to VR over the past 8+ years, I have seen first hand how the very plan to offer skiers "The Experience of a Lifetime" has stalled the creativity and growth of the very employees who interact with the customers every day.
This leads to a homogenized experience for the customer base and the employee.

The crux of it from my position is that Vail is powerful enough that they sell their product to people we do business with and thus its important for us to be open minded about skiing at VR properties.
 
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James

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Vail ponied up $82mil + $155mil just for the Triple Peaks (Crested Butte, Okemo, Sunapee) piece. So that's $237 million total.

Triple Peaks sold to CNL in Dec 2008 for $132 million then leased it back. There were some specifics that were not sold though, like lodges and some properties.
I suppose the financial collapse of 2008 made borrowing money from a bank impossible at that time. Then, we were told "nothing would change" in terms of what people experienced. It was essentially a financing move. Not quite.

CNL owned 17? ski areas as a REIT I recall. They liquidated it last year.

http://www.saminfo.com/headline-news/6826-5352-876-cnl-purchases-triple-peaks
CNL Lifestyle Properties Sale:
https://www.cpexecutive.com/post/cnl-lifestyle-liquidates-with-830m-final-sale/
 
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Tricia

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CNL owned 17? ski areas as a REIT I recall. They liquidated it last year
They owned the properties but not the operations.
I know from my personal experience that CNL let many of the properties decline in repair.
The store where I used to work had several leaks in the ceiling from storm drainage. The last I knew, VR was pursuing CNL to force the repairs because product was being destroyed.
That is only one example that I am aware of.
 

James

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Well I guess every property had it's own specifics. In terms of Okemo, they still owned the physical lodges afaik.

Vail has a lease on operations for Northstar till 2027. So, you're saying EPR, which bought from CNL, owns the physical structures? And is acting like a slum lord.
 

Philpug

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There is so much wrong here, it's impossible to start........but some good points. Have to ask why you think that Vail could care less about the sport of skiing? Their entire business model is based on the sport and business of skiing. It's in their best interest to care about the sport of skiing. They want as many people as possible skiing. I don't see how that's a bad thing for the entire global industry.

Vail shouldn't be scary......what should be scary to the sport of skiing is another US/world recession.
I will agree and disagree with what you are saying and what @Core2 is also saying the difference between right and wrong in what Vail is doing is not black and white but very grey, I would say 80% and 10% black and 10% white...and the 80% might be low depending on who you talk to and what their view is. On one side, offering passes at $500-700 is getting skiers on the slopes but to say that a $179 day ticket is also doing the same, I have to question that. The same question can be said with charging close to $1,000 for a private lesson. I do think Vail does a lot for the industry so what is left to do? Do what is best for you. If you ski at a Vail owned property, and it makes sense for you , keep doing so. Don't stop because someone tells you its not the right thing to do. If you don't spend dime one past the cost of a pass, thats your choice, if you spend money there, again it is your choice.
 

nay

dirt heel pusher
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You also probably pay 2x the price for food and ski lessons, and 50% more for lodging than 2015. And the pass prices won't stay down here forever. Once they have decided their empire building is complete and have thoroughly destroyed much of the competition, then they will jack up the season pass price ogwink

It’s as if Alterra doesn’t exist. I think Vail is (maybe) able to avoid anti-trust concerns for this latest move precisely because it now has a similarly situated competitor. If Epic doubles, wouldn’t people flock to Ikon?

Season prices like RMSP were being jacked up anyway. $30 a year is a lot over 10 years and is way outpacing inflation. Right now, the emergence of Ikon is going to hold down prices as the two continue to acquire.

If Alterra goes and buys three more resorts next week, will there be similar outrage? Alterra is redoing the Steamboat base restaurant. Think food prices are going to go down?

Alterra is replacing Zephyr at Winter Park with a gondola. Think lodging rates are going down? How about ski lesson rates? How about prices for on mountain food that are already highly priced?

Powdr is replacing the two Copper center village lifts with a six pack and a six pack bubble chair. WTF even is a bubble chair? I hardly even rode a high speed chair this season. Think lodging rates are going down? How about parking rates that are already ridiculous unless you want to hike or ride a bus. Is crowding going to go down?

Alterra’a first $150M of planned investment looks exactly like what Vail is doing. Which makes sense, since there are major neglected capital upgrades at all of these places.

BTW, Crested Butte’s owners sent out an email today to their customers. I’m surprised nobody has posted it.
 

nay

dirt heel pusher
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This is what hit my inbox from CBMR this morning.

To Our Community:

As many of you have recently learned, our family has made the decision to sell Crested Butte Mountain Resort to Vail Resorts. While we realize this may come as a surprise to some, we want you all to know this was a very hard decision. We started in the resort business in 1972, and then got started in the ski resort business at Okemo in 1982. Growing up in the ski industry created a foundation for our entire lives and developed much of what we are passionate about today.

For the last 14 years in Crested Butte, we have developed many friendships with people at work and within this community. There are so many stories and too many memories to count. We have poured our hearts into making the best skiing and riding experiences possible in the three places we have called home for so long: Okemo; Mount Sunapee; and Crested Butte.

We have seen an amazing amount of change in the ski industry over the years. Much of the evolution has been good: improved technologies around ski gear; the onset of snowboarding; grooming equipment; energy efficient snowmaking; and probably the most heartening is how many more people ski and ride or simply come to the mountains now versus three decades ago.

Our business model has always been somewhat unique in this industry; operating large, successful ski resorts that are family owned. It is something we have always enjoyed, been proud of, and worked hard to preserve. Another reason this decision has been incredibly difficult for our family.

When approached by Vail Resorts, all of these thoughts, memories and realities stirred through our heads. What does this mean for us? What does this mean for our teams? What does this mean for our communities? What does this mean for the mountains that we have poured decades of energy into? We were not naïve in understanding this would mean changes in the future. We spent a lot of time contemplating all of this, and ultimately decided that moving forward with the sale was in the best interest for Crested Butte Mountain Resort. Although we cannot perfectly predict the future, we ultimately felt this would be a positive move. We realize the idea of a large company like Vail Resorts overseeing the operations of our unique resorts may feel unsettling. However, the reality is they are mountain operators and run some of the best and most successful resorts in the industry. Putting CBMR in their hands will ensure a good future for the ski area and therefore support a good future for the Gunnison Valley. They are great operators and good people. They will invest in the mountain and our community and they will do so following their company values that are similar to what we have lived by over the years.

While some of you may think we have only considered ourselves in this decision, this could not be farther from the truth. We have entered into this transaction with the best intentions for the ski area, our fellow employees, and the valley. If we did not think this was going to bring more opportunity for the resort in the years to come, we would not have made this decision. Our goal has never been to make Crested Butte the biggest, but to make it the best and we feel Vail Resorts is poised to do just that.

With that said, it is obvious that Vail Resorts will do some things differently than us. We hope you will be open to their approach and give them the opportunity to prove their good intentions.

Anyone who has owned a business or been intimately involved in one knows how much you care about that business succeeding, whether or not you still own it. That is most definitely our hope, and in turn, we hope it leads to further success and sustainability for the entire community. It has been a pleasure operating this awesome ski area for the last 14 years. We have come a long way and look forward to watching this valley prosper, while continuing to be the fun, quirky and amazing community that it is. Thank you for sharing it with us.

With mountains of gratitude,

Tim, Diane, Ethan & Erica
 

James

Out There
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WTF even is a bubble chair?
Oh dude... so nice. We poo pooed it too. After 3 years I can tell you it's awesome. At first, I mainly thought it was keeping the rain off. And wind. But it's the brutal cold too. This Christmas was so cold. Without a bubble, in the past, we'd take one ride up with kids and have to go in to get warm. Too dangerous. This is 0 to -10, no wind chill. With the bubble you're in the tent... We could actually go up and not have to get warm.

@Steve posted the Sunapee letter. Not all that interesting. The usual, we're sorry, hated to sell, you'll be in good hands.

IMG_5293.PNG
snorgtees.com
 
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Wasatchman

over the hill
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It’s as if Alterra doesn’t exist. I think Vail is (maybe) able to avoid anti-trust concerns for this latest move precisely because it now has a similarly situated competitor. If Epic doubles, wouldn’t people flock to Ikon?

Season prices like RMSP were being jacked up anyway. $30 a year is a lot over 10 years and is way outpacing inflation. Right now, the emergence of Ikon is going to hold down prices as the two continue to acquire.

If Alterra goes and buys three more resorts next week, will there be similar outrage? Alterra is redoing the Steamboat base restaurant. Think food prices are going to go down?

Alterra is replacing Zephyr at Winter Park with a gondola. Think lodging rates are going down? How about ski lesson rates? How about prices for on mountain food that are already highly priced?

Powdr is replacing the two Copper center village lifts with a six pack and a six pack bubble chair. WTF even is a bubble chair? I hardly even rode a high speed chair this season. Think lodging rates are going down? How about parking rates that are already ridiculous unless you want to hike or ride a bus. Is crowding going to go down?

Alterra’a first $150M of planned investment looks exactly like what Vail is doing. Which makes sense, since there are major neglected capital upgrades at all of these places.

BTW, Crested Butte’s owners sent out an email today to their customers. I’m surprised nobody has posted it.

The bar for anti-trust is ridiculously easy to clear. Unfortunately for consumers Vail is not even close to having to be concerned about anti-trust at this juncture regardless of Alterra.

Yeah, in the short run these Vail/Alterra multiresort passes are great for avid skiers (myself included). In the medium term, not so much once Vail and Alterra have created a duopoly.
 

nay

dirt heel pusher
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The bar for anti-trust is ridiculously easy to clear. Unfortunately for consumers Vail is not even close to having to be concerned about anti-trust at this juncture regardless of Alterra.

Yeah, in the short run these Vail/Alterra multiresort passes are great for avid skiers (myself included). In the medium term, not so much once Vail and Alterra have created a duopoly.

Vail had to divest A-Basin in 1997 when it bought Keystone.

I agree about the duopoly problem, although if you look at MTN’s financials I think it’s hard to find a driver to suggest radical price increases.

The frog will boil, but again, that’s been going on for years with the big pass price increases year over year, at least in Colorado. Maybe I’m desensitized because none of this seems like anything new.
 
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John Webb

mdskier
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Nevada City CA
Wow!
I wonder if this will create another shakeup in the Powder Alliance. Stevens Pass is one of the resorts on the Powder Alliance. Crested Butte was previously and then left the Powder Alliance when they reached an agreement with Vail. (I renewed my Sierra at Tahoe season pass when I heard about the Powder Alliance adding resorts.)
Puzzled as I bought a cheap Sierra at Tahoe Senior pass only for the Powder Alliance tie -especially for Stevens Pass and several other Idaho & PNW areas.
(plan to ski little or none at Sierra Tahoe) I'd think Stevens Pass would have to honor Powder Alliance next year as they said previously.
 

Started at 53

Making fresh tracks
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So many thoughts about the posts in this thread.

Firstly, you all do realize in skiing terms that the typical PugSkier is truly a 1%’er. There are lostsof posts about poor me fromm people who are living the dream of skiing 30+ days a year, many a good bit more.

I get the “soul” feeling of a place, I did not like Vail at all, but loved Beaver Creek, but of course both are Vail properties. Who knows what changes will take place at the new areas, or if the “vibe” will be altered.

As for season passes, we (Deer Valley) got hit with a 15% season pass increase after Alterra acquired DV, not good to say the least, but if you want to dance you pay the band.

Increased numbers of skiers might be an inconvenience for the 1%’ers, but look at it from a bigger picture..... The support/industry wins with more jobs at the local level (lessons/food staff/lodging) and the industry as a whole should win with more product being sold with more active skiers IF in fact the numbers rise (debatable from some stuff I have read).

Those are just a few of my reactions to this thread, but the bottom line is stop complaining and go out and enjoy skiing. Sadly it does not matter what the 1% think in this situation, The Alterra’s and Vail’s of the world are not catering to the PugSki’ers of the world, the 1% are likely seen as a drain on the system by skiing so much.
 

John Webb

mdskier
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Oh dude... so nice. We poo pooed it too. After 3 years I can tell you it's awesome. At first, I mainly thought it was keeping the rain off. And wind. But it's the brutal cold too. This Christmas was so cold. Without a bubble, in the past, we'd take one ride up with kids and have to go in to get warm. Too dangerous. This is 0 to -10, no wind chill. With the bubble you're in the tent...
Another solution in the past was 30 years ago Stowe and MRG would give chair lift riders blankets to wear on the cold ride up !
I doubt they still do this. :micdrop:
 

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