Turn initiation on steeps

[Wasatchman]

I think you could ski it dead slow and still tip your skis into the new turn....

This is Great Scott at the bird, I had pretty meager skills back then, but I could still tips and flex the new inside ski and get a turn happening with out pushing off, even if was with up unweighting and slightly aft. I mean I think Great scott is 35 degree+ at least



I think as long as you release the new inside ski though, you really don't need a min speed to accomplish it, I would have needed at the time that video was taken but I was VERY aft. I have nothing that is over 35 degree that would have anything but powder on it.

Thanks @ Josh Matta. Appreciate the video as well. I probably just don't have a good enough eye for it, but if you didn't tell me, I would have assumed from watching the video that you were pushing off a bit on the outside ski. In fact, that was in part why I asked the question on the board. Some people are telling me no, no, no, you don't need to push off, and I look at them and often wonder if they really are pushing off.

But you and others are indeed confirming nope, you don't really need to push off (or at least not at my 35-40 degree limitation of needing to push off).

And good to know that you don't think much speed is required either.

I sure have a lot of work to do to get there. The feedback from you and others is great. Thank you!!

 

[Wasatchman]

Just tip very strongly and pull the feet back to list the tips.

Appreciate the feedback!

Can you elaborate a bit more on pulling the feet back? The only time I seem to be pulling my feet back a little is on bumps when my skis are off the ground. Can you describe the sequence a bit. You release the edge by flattening your skis and I assume your weight is neutrally balanced at this point, and then not sure how the pulling the feet back would work in this sequence if your skis are still on the ground? Thanks.

 

[Magi]

My understanding is that even on steeps, you can initiate a turn by simply tipping your skis.

However, in the steeps and especially in chopped up snow, I tend to push off a bit on my outside ski to initiate the turn. If I simply try to tip my skis like I would on less steep terrain, I find my tails have a propensity to get hooked up.

Thoughts?

You can (and should) initiate any turn by tipping your skis using your feet/legs (caveat: I only have personal experience to ~53 degrees, so maybe something changes after that...)

The tail feeling "trapped" or unable to release is almost always a symptom of being too far aft on the ski. Flex your ankle and (probably extend your knee too) to move your hips over your feet, and that should allow the ski to pivot and tip cleanly. Video will confirm/deny this.

The other problem (or a contributing issue) may be that you are accomplishing the change in edge angle by tipping the entirety of your body into the turn (inclining) instead of tipping with the lower body (angulating). The faster you're moving when you start tipping, the more you'll be able to "cheat" by inclining instead of (or before) you angulate.

 

[razie]

Watch the feet! 'nufff said.

 

[Erik Timmerman]

Sounds like you need to move your body down the hill.

 

[Rod9301]

Appreciate the feedback!

Can you elaborate a bit more on pulling the feet back? The only time I seem to be pulling my feet back a little is on bumps when my skis are off the ground. Can you describe the sequence a bit. You release the edge by flattening your skis and I assume your weight is neutrally balanced at this point, and then not sure how the pulling the feet back would work in this sequence if your skis are still on the ground? Thanks.

Shorten the downhill leg and tip it a lot. At the same time pull the feet back. I know it sounds like you can't do it, but try it. You will be amazed how much it shortens the turn radius.

 

[4ster]

Sounds like you need to move your body down the hill.

Bingo^
...or LET your body move down the hill.

 

[Mike King]

If it is really steep, move down to the skis to start the turn. So, as you flex, tip the lower legs into the turn.

Tipping the skis is NOT just rolling the ankles, it involves moving the knees into and down into the turn.

Mike

 

[Marker]

In the video above, I see a prounced pole plant downhill and in front of the feet on both turns. I was advised to use this to keep from inclining and stay angulated while moving my COM forward and downhill to help release the old turn. Does this make sense to the OP and the instructors posting here?

 

[Wasatchman]

In the video above, I see a prounced pole plant downhill and in front of the feet on both turns. I was advised to use this to keep from inclining and stay angulated while moving my COM forward and downhill to help release the old turn. Does this make sense to the OP and the instructors posting here?

It does make sense. I find forward pole plant helps a lot with keeping COM forward and downhill.

Going to think about it more today when I'm up on the mountain, but as I've been thinking about all the really useful input on this thread I am wondering if my biggest problem may be angulation and perhaps not being neutral enough. Occasionally,I find the deceleration from executing the turn on steeps can throw me a bit aft. While it really noticeable if I'm quite aft, perhaps I'm not as neutral a lot of the time as I should be at the turn initiation. The leg shortening and sensation of pulling back a little is also something I will be paying attention to, and I suppose that really relates to angulation.

But yeah, a pole plant in front seems like it is a must for keeping COM forward and downhll.

 

[Rod9301]

It does make sense. I find forward pole plant helps a lot with keeping COM forward and downhill.

Going to think about it more today when I'm up on the mountain, but as I've been thinking about all the really useful input on this thread I am wondering if my biggest problem may be angulation and perhaps not being neutral enough. Occasionally,I find the deceleration from executing the turn on steeps can throw me a bit aft. While it really noticeable if I'm quite aft, perhaps I'm not as neutral a lot of the time as I should be at the turn initiation. The leg shortening and sensation of pulling back a little is also something I will be paying attention to, and I suppose that really relates to angulation.

But yeah, a pole plant in front seems like it is a must for keeping COM forward and downhll.

If you plane the pole forward, towards the tips, you lose all the counter when you need it the most and your hips are pointed in the direction of the skis.
Bad.
Plant the pole directly in the fall line, which most of the time will be below your boots.

 

[Wasatchman]

If you plane the pole forward, towards the tips, you lose all the counter when you need it the most and your hips are pointed in the direction of the skis.
Bad.
Plant the pole directly in the fall line, which most of the time will be below your boots.

Okay. Makes sense. I think I am doing as you say but I'll pay attention. When I said forward pole plant I meant down the fall line. I assume at the turn initiation, skis are almost perpendicular but torso still pointing down the fall line. So when I say forward, I am thinking down fall line below boots

But I'll pay attention to that as well and thanks for clarification.

 

[4ster]

The leg shortening and sensation of pulling back a little is also something I will be paying attention to, and I suppose that really relates to angulation.

Also realize that the "pullback" happens in concert with the release of the skis & the CoM moving diagonally across the skis into the direction of the new turn.

When I said forward pole plant I meant down the fall line.

Yes, into the direction of the new turn. Imagine a string attached from your pole tip to your navel. As you swing the pole let it pull your mass into the new turn. When you touch the pole, the transition begins.
Your legs need to work freely & independently from your torso, so your skis can turn further across the hill than your CoM.

 

[Wasatchman]

So got a chance to about all the great input up on the mountain today.

I know what @Rod9301 means on pushing the foot back. When I push off I guess I am naturally doing it but wasn't thinking about it. So great tip to think that way but without pushing off.

And I am often not in true Neutral enough at the turn initiation I don't think.

Lots of work to do, but the tips everybody gave are fantastic! Thank you so much.

If any instructors posting in this thread teach in Utah, please give me a ping- I'll sign up for a lesson a little later in the season.

 

[JonathanR]

A perfect turn usually takes place on a mellow groomer. If you move to the steeps and chopped snow the technique by necessity requires an adjustment and much higher tolerance to "unconventional" moves. Unless you are really (and I mean really) fast in your transition to the new set of edges, if the slope is truly steep and you wait until the skis transition from one set of edges to the next, you will be going super-fast by the end of the turn. The outside ski push-off helps you to unweigh the skis and pivot them, which is much quicker than weighting for them to load up and turn. This maneuver is effective on the steeps and often pretty legit. To execute the proper turn mechanics in that situation, you need to (a) change edges very early and very quickly, and (b) make sure that your body is transitioning down the slope. All of this is of course much harder when things get steep, and almost impossible when things get really steep. I have not seen anyone making perfect carved turns on a 50+ deg natural (chopped up) slope. Try to initiate the turn by pulling up your outside leg (the very opposite from the push-off movement. (make sure you have a clean path for falling in front of you in case things don't go well). Good luck.

I learned this from my last ski lesson. I had a misconception that carving was the perfect turning ideal and once you learned that it's all you would be doing. My instructor said that when you get to the steeps you are going to have to incorporate more skidding and less "ideal" turning mechanics out of necessity on that terrain.

 

[dj61]

My understanding is that even on steeps, you can initiate a turn by simply tipping your skis.

However, in the steeps and especially in chopped up snow, I tend to push off a bit on my outside ski to initiate the turn. If I simply try to tip my skis like I would on less steep terrain, I find my tails have a propensity to get hooked up.

Thoughts?

Maybe this helps? It worked for me.

 

[karlo]

Yeah, skis are nearly perpendicular to fall line, and then I tend to push off a bit on the outside ski to start the new turn. If I try to simply tip the skis like I would on non-steep terrain, my tails hook up. I don't see another way to start that new turn without pushing off a bit on the outside, but some have told me really skilled skiers can still simply tip their skis like you would on mellower terrain.

As far as speed, haven't measured it, but it's start of turn so guessing often 5-10 mph at start of turn on steeps. Just guessing since I'm not measuring my speed .

Start from a neutral point, or finish a turn in the neutral point. What’s that? Skis flat to the snow, you “hovering” weightlessly over them, with you body perpendicular to the sloped “floor”. Now, don’t push with that new outside ski. Flex the new inside leg.

Now, you may think you’ll tip over and fall. You will if you don’t angulate with your hips as you flex that inside leg. The angulation will keep you centered over that new outside ski that is now tipping over.

Try doing it on a grassy or sandy slope without skis. Now, try that with your butt back behind your feet. Doesn’t work, right. Gotta get yourself over your feet. Same with skiing.

IMO, the first key to the puzzle is finding your center in that neutral point between turns.

 

[karlo]

So much for asking questions before jumping in...



You need to be moving forward at a reasonable speed and prepared to move your COM down the slope for tipping to work on any pitch. It is an exercise in trust: trust in yourself to make the turn.

For me, it’s trusting my skis. I would never trust myself.

 

[Brock Tice]

Sounds like you need to move your body down the hill.

Ding ding ding. If your tails are catching you're not moving your CoM downhill, probably due to fear. I've moved into skiing a lot of 45° and greater this season and I'm finding I have to conquer the fear again to make it happen.

 

[4ster]

I learned this from my last ski lesson. I had a misconception that carving was the perfect turning ideal and once you learned that it's all you would be doing. My instructor said that when you get to the steeps you are going to have to incorporate more skidding and less "ideal" turning mechanics out of necessity on that terrain.

The carving skills are still present but re-direction occurs upon release at the top of the turn by pivoting the feet & legs to the point where edge & pressure (i.e. Carving) will complete the turn.

In the ideal, pure carve we attain high edge angles early so pressure can bend the ski into an early arc beginning above the falline.