Turn initiation on steeps

[Wasatchman]

My understanding is that even on steeps, you can initiate a turn by simply tipping your skis.

However, in the steeps and especially in chopped up snow, I tend to push off a bit on my outside ski to initiate the turn. If I simply try to tip my skis like I would on less steep terrain, I find my tails have a propensity to get hooked up.

Thoughts?

 

[Doug Briggs]

My understanding is that even on steeps, you can initiate a turn by simply tipping your skis.

However, in the steeps and especially in chopped up snow, I tend to push off a bit on my outside ski to initiate the turn. If I simply try to tip my skis like I would on less steep terrain, I find my tails have a propensity to get hooked up.

Thoughts?

At the start of the turn? Or the end?

 

[Wasatchman]

Start of turn. Thanks.

 

[Doug Briggs]

How fast are you moving when you tip? I'll assume since it is steep your skis are nearly perpendicular to the fall line?

 

[markojp]

My understanding is that even on steeps, you can initiate a turn by simply tipping your skis.

However, in the steeps and especially in chopped up snow, I tend to push off a bit on my outside ski to initiate the turn. If I simply try to tip my skis like I would on less steep terrain, I find my tails have a propensity to get hooked up.

Thoughts?

You're back and in, and aligned to move across the hill, not down it. Pretty straight forward.

 

[Plai]

One of my first lessons learning parallel was the patience turn. From a stop with skis parallel against (perpendicular to) the fall line, release the edges and let the tips start into the fall line. Then roll the ankles to get the edges to help turn.

Maybe this guy explains it better....

 

[Wasatchman]

How fast are you moving when you tip? I'll assume since it is steep your skis are nearly perpendicular to the fall line?

Yeah, skis are nearly perpendicular to fall line, and then I tend to push off a bit on the outside ski to start the new turn. If I try to simply tip the skis like I would on non-steep terrain, my tails hook up. I don't see another way to start that new turn without pushing off a bit on the outside, but some have told me really skilled skiers can still simply tip their skis like you would on mellower terrain.

As far as speed, haven't measured it, but it's start of turn so guessing often 5-10 mph at start of turn on steeps. Just guessing since I'm not measuring my speed .

 

[Ken_R]

Yeah, skis are nearly perpendicular to fall line, and then I tend to push off a bit on the outside ski to start the new turn. If I try to simply tip the skis like I would on non-steep terrain, my tails hook up. I don't see another way to start that new turn without pushing off a bit on the outside, but some have told me really skilled skiers can still simply tip their skis like you would on mellower terrain.

As far as speed, haven't measured it, but it's start of turn so guessing often 5-10 mph at start of turn on steeps. Just guessing since I'm not measuring my speed .

I find that if its really steep the tails will get easily stuck when trying to start a turn in choppy snow or powder. My remedy is to do a quasi jump turn to get the tails enough off the snow to release. Im a hack skier though.

 

[Wasatchman]

One of my first lessons learning parallel was the patience turn. From a stop with skis parallel against (perpendicular to) the fall line, release the edges and let the tips start into the fall line. Then roll the ankles to get the edges to help turn.

Maybe this guy explains it better....

Yup, understand the concept, but problem I have is in steeps, if I simply roll ankles after edges are released, my tails want to hook up. I need to push off with downhill ski a bit after edges are released on steeps or tails seem like they want to hook up.

In fact, as I was reflecting on this the other say, all the other skiers I saw on the steeps were seemingly doing as I do. But apparently you can roll your ankles, or tip your skis, however you want to call it, just like you would on mellower terrain.

 

[Wasatchman]

I find that if its really steep the tails will get easily stuck when trying to start a turn in choppy snow or powder. My remedy is to do a quasi jump turn to get the tails enough off the snow to release. Im a hack skier though.

Exactly! That's what I am doing. Someone told me you don't need to do it that way but I sure can't see how.

 

[mdf]

I'm assuming you are talking about respectable but not crazy steep -- i.e. not survival hop turn steep.
Last spring during the Mother's Day get-together at Loveland and A-Basin, I got some advice on broadening my options in steep, sticky snow. The improvement I needed was to get to a true neutral (front-back and side-to-side) at transition. Once you do that, you have lots of options.

You can turn just by tipping the skis. Or you can pivot flat skis under your foot using femur rotation, and then tip. Just a few degrees makes a big difference -- it speeds up the initiation and reduces the need for the deep "dig in" in the belly of the turn (which in turn makes it hard to get the next one started).

[edit - hit the post button before I meant to.]

 

[Ken_R]

I'm assuming you are talking about respectable but not crazy steep -- i.e. not survival hop turn steep.
Last spring during the Mother's Day get-together at Loveland and A-Basin, I got some advice on broadening my options in steep, sticky snow. The improvement I needed was to get to a true neutral (front-back and side-to-side) at transition.

Dunno about the OP but my comment was about slopes of >35º steepness or so with loose somewhat wind affected snow. If its wind buffed then its super easy no need to do that stuff.

 

[Scruffy]

How steep are you talking about? How is the snow surface? How wide is the slope?

 

[Alexzn]

A perfect turn usually takes place on a mellow groomer. If you move to the steeps and chopped snow the technique by necessity requires an adjustment and much higher tolerance to "unconventional" moves. Unless you are really (and I mean really) fast in your transition to the new set of edges, if the slope is truly steep and you wait until the skis transition from one set of edges to the next, you will be going super-fast by the end of the turn. The outside ski push-off helps you to unweigh the skis and pivot them, which is much quicker than weighting for them to load up and turn. This maneuver is effective on the steeps and often pretty legit. To execute the proper turn mechanics in that situation, you need to (a) change edges very early and very quickly, and (b) make sure that your body is transitioning down the slope. All of this is of course much harder when things get steep, and almost impossible when things get really steep. I have not seen anyone making perfect carved turns on a 50+ deg natural (chopped up) slope. Try to initiate the turn by pulling up your outside leg (the very opposite from the push-off movement. (make sure you have a clean path for falling in front of you in case things don't go well). Good luck.

 

[Doug Briggs]

So much for asking questions before jumping in...



You need to be moving forward at a reasonable speed and prepared to move your COM down the slope for tipping to work on any pitch. It is an exercise in trust: trust in yourself to make the turn.

 

[Rod9301]

You're more likely to hit your tails on the toslope if you push oh the uphill ski.
It can be done, but you need to really pick up the tails. And you need to own this turn for really steep stuff.

But if you have room, just tipping the skis will not cause you to hit the tails. The tails will follow the tips, so they don't get rotated to hang.

Just tip very strongly and pull the feet back to list the tips.

I can turn like this in soft snow at 50 degrees. It a little scary, but it works well.

If it's really narrow though, jump turns off the uphill ski are the only option, especially if the snow is firm.

 

[Skisailor]

Totally agree with @Alexzn. And I am also talking about steeps of 35 to 50 degrees where I have experience using this. Shorten your downhill leg - the new inside ski of your turn and use femur rotation. You will be on flat skis approximately in the fall line. As you continue to turn lengthen the new outside leg. Some call it a bicycle move. I call it a long leg-short leg turn initiation.

It must be accompanied by an aggressive movement of your COM down the slope. The direction of this “dive” changes with snow condition. In light powder snow or on top of wind buffed, I move very directly down the slope. In heavy snow or crud I “dive” across the ski at a 45 degree angle or less - more in the direction of the ski tips - knowing I have to have more patience to let the skis come around in the heavy snow.

The top half of the turn happens quickly so we do not pick up a lot of speed. Be sure to finish balanced over that new outside long leg. Do not get inside or you will go for a ride across the hill - not good in narrow places!

It’s absolutely effortless since I go with gravity - the opposite of jump turns. My head never moves “up”.

 

[Wasatchman]

Yeah, I should have clarified steepness. I am talking around 35 degrees plus in choppy snow. And around 40 degrees-plus, I need to do it in any conditions.

Sounds like some others agree, that if you are skilled enough, you can still just simply tip your skis (or at least until things are getting to the extreme around 50 degrees or so).

As far as how wide the slope, I tend to push off a bit regardless of width in conditions noted above. If it gets too narrow for me, then I'll do a full on jump turn. But I find even if wide, when it is 35+ degrees in choppy snow, or 40+ degrees regardless of conditions, then I am pushing off with that downhill ski, kind of like what @KenR described, quasi jump turn almost.

Plenty of people are confirming that you can indeed still just tip your skis well beyond where I find I can't. No surprises, I have some work to do.

Suggestions so far are

1) Make sure I am truly committing my COM down the slope
2) A minimum, reasonable speed is required to do it
3) Make sure I'm really at a true neutral when attempting it

 

[Josh Matta]

I think you could ski it dead slow and still tip your skis into the new turn....

This is Great Scott at the bird, I had pretty meager skills back then, but I could still tips and flex the new inside ski and get a turn happening with out pushing off, even if was with up unweighting and slightly aft. I mean I think Great scott is 35 degree+ at least



I think as long as you release the new inside ski though, you really dont need a min speed to accomplish it, I would have needed at the time that video was taken but I was VERY aft. I have nothing that is over 35 degree that would have anything but powder on it.

 

[Plai]

How steep are you talking about? How is the snow surface? How wide is the slope?

+1 need to know