Symptoms of Too Much Heel Lift?

[AmyPJ]

Amy, "he fixed my stance in one run".... please elaborate. Fore/aft? Width? How?
Thx.

Fore/aft. Where and when I was applying ball-of-foot pressure. I don't want to elaborate more, because it was an exaggerated move to start with so I would get the feeling for it, and it was torn apart by several people on here. (I started a thread about it, then deleted it.) What I've learned is that nothing beats skiing WITH real experts to help you, vs. armchair "experts" who have no idea what you really ski like, or what your challenges are. Everybody has good intentions, but it can clutter the mind with advice that doesn't apply or isn't truly sound advice.

 

[GA49]

So after some analysis, my boot fitter added some heel lift to relieve quad burn. This is possibly the first step in multple steps. He did a pretty thorough assessment.

• I have average range of motion in my angle, verified by 2 boot fitters
• I have very large calves (18in.) so a different fitter (before seeing this one) did the following:
  • Adding ~3mm padding to the front of the tongue to push the knee back toward center of cuff
  • They stretched the cuff to give me more room to have the calf move back
  • I discussed with the new fitter I'm working with and he agreed that it's OK to keep and is a good idea
• My quads were still burning a little after this work that was done
• The heel lift was added
  • Once they did this, since my quads were sore, I was able to tell a difference that the quads were not activated to the same level while standing in the fitters shop, I have no skied with them yet.
  • I am going to ski with this configuration on Friday and head right back to the boot shop with either a thumbs up or down on how things are going and we'll go from there.
  • We'll make additional adjustments as needed

I guess the point being is that in my case the fitter felt a heel lift would help with the quad burn. Do others with similar issues above benefit from a heel lift?

I made a silly diagram...hopefully I'll be the dude on the right...

 

[James]

So after some analysis, my boot fitter added some heel lift to relieve quad burn. This is possibly the first step in multple steps. He did a pretty thorough assessment.

• I have average range of motion in my angle, verified by 2 boot fitters
• I have very large calves (18in.) so a different fitter (before seeing this one) did the following:
  • Adding ~3mm padding to the front of the tongue to push the knee back toward center of cuff
  • They stretched the cuff to give me more room to have the calf move back
  • I discussed with the new fitter I'm working with and he agreed that it's OK to keep and is a good idea
• My quads were still burning a little after this work that was done
• The heel lift was added
  • Once they did this, since my quads were sore, I was able to tell a difference that the quads were not activated to the same level while standing in the fitters shop, I have no skied with them yet.
  • I am going to ski with this configuration on Friday and head right back to the boot shop with either a thumbs up or down on how things are going and we'll go from there.
  • We'll make additional adjustments as needed

I guess the point being is that in my case the fitter felt a heel lift would help with the quad burn. Do others with similar issues above benefit from a heel lift?

I made a silly diagram...hopefully I'll be the dude on the right...

View attachment 231914

Your forward lean won’t change with a heel lift inside the boot. It can’t it’s plastic. You’ve opened the ankle though. I wonder at some if point they’ll try a toe plate under the sole.

 

[Noodler]

So after some analysis, my boot fitter added some heel lift to relieve quad burn. This is possibly the first step in multple steps. He did a pretty thorough assessment.

• I have average range of motion in my angle, verified by 2 boot fitters
• I have very large calves (18in.) so a different fitter (before seeing this one) did the following:
  • Adding ~3mm padding to the front of the tongue to push the knee back toward center of cuff
  • They stretched the cuff to give me more room to have the calf move back
  • I discussed with the new fitter I'm working with and he agreed that it's OK to keep and is a good idea
• My quads were still burning a little after this work that was done
• The heel lift was added
  • Once they did this, since my quads were sore, I was able to tell a difference that the quads were not activated to the same level while standing in the fitters shop, I have no skied with them yet.
  • I am going to ski with this configuration on Friday and head right back to the boot shop with either a thumbs up or down on how things are going and we'll go from there.
  • We'll make additional adjustments as needed

I guess the point being is that in my case the fitter felt a heel lift would help with the quad burn. Do others with similar issues above benefit from a heel lift?

I made a silly diagram...hopefully I'll be the dude on the right...

View attachment 231914

Fire your boot fitter. He's clueless about fore/aft alignment.

 

[ted]

If you can’t get forward due to limited ankle range of motion a heel lift is the right approach.
If your ankle range of motion is normal, a heel lift will cause you to overflex your knees while trying to tension your Achilles to achieve balance and ball of foot pressure. The overflexing will put you in the back seat.

 

[ted]

Most modern bindings have around 5mm heel higher than toe. What bindings are you using. I recommend you try standing on a flat floor with a 5mm lift under your heel and felex forward. Then take the heel lift away and flex again. Which feels better? I would try first without the heel lift inside the boot., if your ankle range of motion is truly normal.

 

[GA49]

Fire your boot fitter. He's clueless about fore/aft alignment.

I'll let him know noodler said so. They've been doing it for 30 years and have been recommended by 4 separate people in different locations from different businesses. The guy next to me drove 6 hours to see him for a a new boot fit.

Maybe he's missing something?

 

[GA49]

Most modern bindings have around 5mm heel higher than toe. What bindings are you using. I recommend you try standing on a flat floor with a 5mm lift under your heel and felex forward. Then take the heel lift away and flex again. Which feels better? I would try first without the heel lift inside the boot., if your ankle range of motion is truly normal.

I tried that using two magazines, it felt better because more weight moved to the balls of my feet. I immediately felt less stress on my quads.

 

[GA49]

Your forward lean won’t change with a heel lift inside the boot. It can’t it’s plastic. You’ve opened the ankle though. I wonder at some if point they’ll try a toe plate under the sole.

Yeah the diagram is a bit silly, but the effect seemed to be achieved in a static test. I guess the diagram would show less of an angle between the calf and hamstring?

Yeah I'm wondering also about the toe shim--one step at a time I guess. I think the idea was to get my standing up a little first.

 

[GA49]

Most modern bindings have around 5mm heel higher than toe. What bindings are you using. I recommend you try standing on a flat floor with a 5mm lift under your heel and felex forward. Then take the heel lift away and flex again. Which feels better? I would try first without the heel lift inside the boot., if your ankle range of motion is truly normal.

I have Tyrolia Protector bindings. They are 5mm delta, about 0.88 deg based on my BSL

 

[Noodler]

I'll let him know noodler said so. They've been doing it for 30 years and have been recommended by 4 separate people in different locations from different businesses. The guy next to me drove 6 hours to see him for a a new boot fit.

Maybe he's missing something?

Yeah, he's missing something. Did you read this old thread you posted into? Did you read Bud's posts? Do some research and read Bud's posts about sagittal plane alignment on this forum. 30 years of boot fitting doesn't necessarily mean they know fore/aft alignment. Plenty of "fitters" get this stuff horribly wrong.

 

[Noodler]

Yeah the diagram is a bit silly, but the effect seemed to be achieved in a static test. I guess the diagram would show less of an angle between the calf and hamstring?

Yeah I'm wondering also about the toe shim--one step at a time I guess. I think the idea was to get my standing up a little first.

And heel lifts do not do that.

 

[cantunamunch]

I tried that using two magazines, it felt better because more weight moved to the balls of my feet. I immediately felt less stress on my quads.

NOT equivalent to putting wedge inside the boot. You may be a candidate for under binding toe lift.

 

[GA49]

NOT equivalent to putting wedge inside the boot. You may be a candidate for under binding toe lift.

Yeah I've heard this before and you could be right. We'll see how it all goes.

 

[GA49]

And heel lifts do not do that.

If these don't work out, or do but not completely resolve the issue, do you have some ideas I can bring back to the fitter?

 

[Noodler]

If these don't work out, or do but not completely resolve the issue, do you have some ideas I can bring back to the fitter?

Did you read Bud's posts from this thread?

Also...

Fore and Aft balance and alignment.

I wanted to pull these thoughts over here to no detract from the outside ski to outside ski thread and discussion. Josh, the effect of lifting the toe of the boot is to move you forward. It sounds like that solves the fore/aft problem in the drill, but you still try to move even further...

www.skitalk.com

Boot Canting and Balancing

Over the years I have found that the Sagittal or fore/aft plane is more important than many realize! There are also four parameters to assess and adjust to optimize our fore/aft balance. In order, once again, we begin from the sole of the feet and work up and out. I consider the skiers' needs...

www.skitalk.com

Ramp, Delta, and Boot/Binding Setup

Paging @tomgellie @bud heishman @Philpug I've been wondering about my boot and binding setup. I'm in a Nordica Doberman GPX that has 3.7 degrees of ramp (according to the printing on the side of the boot). David McPhail (skimoves.me) claims that the optimal net ramp angle (ramp in boot plus...

www.skitalk.com

If you stick with this fitter, you're basically going to have to teach him proper fore/aft assessment and remediation protocols. Personally, I think that's crazy. I would find a fitter that actually understands fore/aft alignment. The fact that this fitter thinks that a heel lift would solve your issues would make me run fast and far from this guy.

BTW - Your diagram is incorrect, in so far as, most folks have quad burn due to being pitched too far forward, not too far back.

 

[GA49]

I did ski with it and it did improve the quad burn a little for sure, but not enough. Their goal was to make small adjustments without getting too radical as this was the first time I went in to work with them. The heel lift is probably 1mm (or so) and is based on the ROM that the fitter could detect. Normal, but on the lower end of normal, so he wanted to open the ankle up a bit and provide more a grounded sense on both heel and forefoot. That was really all it was meant for. And it did just that, I don't want to take it out, something improved in terms of a balanced sensation.

Some additional mods they made:

• Stretched the cuff a little more
• Added a 3mm Cantology shim in between grip walk and boot. Routered the lug. This was to level the 5mm binding delta as much as possible (I used the same binding on all of my skis). Apparently the Technica Mach1 MV boots have a slightly thin toe lug (not solid plastic from top to bottom) which doesn't allow much more than that.

Went back to ski and hopefully I'm done with this problem...the boots felt really good.

I did 6 more runs from top to bottom in total mashed up crud and no focal quad burn -- maybe 20% of what it was which I mark up to back seating and just overall work in that kind of snow. Another indication were legs were not nearly as activated while running on the flats. Night and day difference.

Another thing it made me notice is when I am really in the back seat or squatting to much for balance compensation--so I think it's a double win here, I can ski longer and also have better/detectable feedback for being too far back. Something I hadn't even thought of when getting this issue addressed.

 

[COSkier87]

I did ski with it and it did improve the quad burn a little for sure, but not enough. Their goal was to make small adjustments without getting too radical as this was the first time I went in to work with them. The heel lift is probably 1mm (or so) and is based on the ROM that the fitter could detect. Normal, but on the lower end of normal, so he wanted to open the ankle up a bit and provide more a grounded sense on both heel and forefoot. That was really all it was meant for. And it did just that, I don't want to take it out, something improved in terms of a balanced sensation.

Some additional mods they made:

• Stretched the cuff a little more
• Added a 3mm Cantology shim in between grip walk and boot. Routered the lug. This was to level the 5mm binding delta as much as possible (I used the same binding on all of my skis). Apparently the Technica Mach1 MV boots have a slightly thin toe lug (not solid plastic from top to bottom) which doesn't allow much more than that.

Went back to ski and hopefully I'm done with this problem...the boots felt really good.

I did 6 more runs from top to bottom in total mashed up crud and no focal quad burn -- maybe 20% of what it was which I mark up to back seating and just overall work in that kind of snow. Another indication were legs were not nearly as activated while running on the flats. Night and day difference.

Another thing it made me notice is when I am really in the back seat or squatting to much for balance compensation--so I think it's a double win here, I can ski longer and also have better/detectable feedback for being too far back. Something I hadn't even thought of when getting this issue addressed.

I have big calves and legs and dealt with issues similar to you, the following may or may not apply to you.

Over the course of my learning progression, I noticed unneeded quad soreness from two major things:

1 - Quad soreness from being tense, bracing my outside leg when turning at speed, and not being on edge
2 - Quad soreness from relying too much on my quads for balance and stability

As I worked on my technique, I noticed that as I flexed my core and glutes more while skiing, the soreness would go away. It didn't come about right away because my quads were used to overpowering my hips and core, but as I consciously worked on the mind-muscle connection, and with the help of workouts in the gym, I was able to utilize those muscles more to help drive my skiing.

Made a huge difference for me, and I did mess with heel lifts a couple times last season but I felt like they threw off my overall balance.