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AmyPJ

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What are some things (besides quad burn) that too much heel lift in either boots or bindings or both, will do? Contemplating toe lifts and gathering intel before my appointment with the bootfitter in Park City that Bud Heishman recommended. I want to walk in armed with as much info as I can on Thursday.
 

Josh Matta

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quad burn can come from just being out of for and aft balance, it could be heels to high or toes to high its easy to see.

if you have any picture or videos taken from the side many people on here can take a fairly educated answer to whats going on. With out knowing or seeing though Ill direct you to this video. To much heel lift is the skier on the right, to little is the skier on the left.

 
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AmyPJ

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Thanks, Josh. There's the video I posted on my other thread about my lovely stem habit. It was on different skis, though but he did get quite a bit of me from the side. I can't remember if any of the side shots made it into my edit or not.

I skied the Sambas today after two days on the Kastles. Very different bindings, and my fitter here measured them and the angle on the Sambas is quite a bit more. I have heel lifts in my boots which seem to have the effect of matching my leg better to the angle of the boots, since they are a short BSL (22.) So, with the binding angle and the boot angle AND SOME VERY FRESHLY TUNED SKIS, I felt like my skis were squirting out from under me today. And I just FELT like my heels were too high and it was contributing to it. Is that possible? I've been debating gas pedals on the boots or at least the Samba bindings but as slow as they were skiing recently, I was doing fine overall (or so I thought.) I had several moments today where they literally shot out from under me and it's a miracle I didn't crash. I yelled "woah!" a lot then giggled. I do like it when my skis are fast, and I think I found the sweet spot several times today and it just launched me. I'll bring the skis with me to the boot appointment. Seems it might be a good idea.
 

bud heishman

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Sorry Josh, but that animation is directed at the amount of forward lean via cuff lean and/or delta angle. Heel lift would not cause these changes. Heel lifts open the ankle joint without affecting forward lean. The common use for heel lifts in alignment is to open the ankle joint to allow more congruency for those with limited dorsiflexion. On the other hand, changing delta angle (the angle created by the stand height differential between the toe piece thickness and the heel piece thickness) changes the lower leg angle and affects stance similarly to the above graphic.

If the delta angle is correct the skier will feel very balanced and in a relatively taller stance with good shin pressure on the tongues. They will be able to extend fully at turn initiation and easily pressure the ski shovels before the fall line, then if desired, crush the boot cuff through the shaping phase of the turn. One legged skiing will be optimized as the little to edge will become easier to balance on. Too much delta angle and the skier will ski in a lower flex position unable to extend fully or effectively pressure the ski shovels. The hips must be moved aft to compensate for the increased lower leg forward angle. If the delta is too flat, the skier will need to compensate for the lack of leverage to flex the boot by flexing forward at the waist and will have difficulty remaining in balance.

Remember different binding brands and models have different stand height differentials and that a shorter boot sole vs. a longer boot sole on the same model binding will have different delta angles as the closer or farther apart the toe and heel are changes the angle.

My protocol for aligning the sagittal plane is to first assess and address the range of dorsiflexion by changing ramp angle (the internal boot board angle) and the forward cuff lean. Then I assess and adjust the delta angle to create the appropriate lower leg angle. Lastly, the 4th parameter involves the binding mount position which affects where we stand over the sweet spot of the skis.

IMO getting the sagittal plane aligned properly pays HUGE dividends!

ps. When you watch BB's animation the middle guy is not quite accurate in his extension. When we see a well aligned skier from the side the lower leg and spine should be fairly parallel as Bob's animation depicts, However; when the skier extends the spine and lower leg should remain parallel until they are in line as the knees and hips open rather than the spine go vertical. (parallelogram)

Note: forward cuff angle should not be used to change lower leg angle for the purpose of changing lower leg angle. The ramp angle and cuff angle should be coordinated to adjust for dorsiflexion. Once this is set, any change in lower leg angle should be adjusted with delta angle changes.
 
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Josh Matta

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eh I meant delta aka outside the boot.
 

Tricia

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Thanks, Josh. There's the video I posted on my other thread about my lovely stem habit. It was on different skis, though but he did get quite a bit of me from the side. I can't remember if any of the side shots made it into my edit or not.

I skied the Sambas today after two days on the Kastles. Very different bindings, and my fitter here measured them and the angle on the Sambas is quite a bit more. I have heel lifts in my boots which seem to have the effect of matching my leg better to the angle of the boots, since they are a short BSL (22.) So, with the binding angle and the boot angle AND SOME VERY FRESHLY TUNED SKIS, I felt like my skis were squirting out from under me today. And I just FELT like my heels were too high and it was contributing to it. Is that possible? I've been debating gas pedals on the boots or at least the Samba bindings but as slow as they were skiing recently, I was doing fine overall (or so I thought.) I had several moments today where they literally shot out from under me and it's a miracle I didn't crash. I yelled "woah!" a lot then giggled. I do like it when my skis are fast, and I think I found the sweet spot several times today and it just launched me. I'll bring the skis with me to the boot appointment. Seems it might be a good idea.
That tells me a lot.
I think seeing Matt and taking what Bud said into account will help a ton.
I would love to see you come out here and ski on Bud's clinic skis.
 
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AmyPJ

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That tells me a lot.
I think seeing Matt and taking what Bud said into account will help a ton.
I would love to see you come out here and ski on Bud's clinic skis.
I would love to take one of Bud's clinics! When are they?
 
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AmyPJ

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Sorry Josh, but that animation is directed at the amount of forward lean via cuff lean and/or delta angle. Heel lift would not cause these changes. Heel lifts open the ankle joint without affecting forward lean. The common use for heel lifts in alignment is to open the ankle joint to allow more congruency for those with limited dorsiflexion. On the other hand, changing delta angle (the angle created by the stand height differential between the toe piece thickness and the heel piece thickness) changes the lower leg angle and affects stance similarly to the above graphic.

If the delta angle is correct the skier will feel very balanced and in a relatively taller stance with good shin pressure on the tongues. They will be able to extend fully at turn initiation and easily pressure the ski shovels before the fall line, then if desired, crush the boot cuff through the shaping phase of the turn. One legged skiing will be optimized as the little to edge will become easier to balance on. Too much delta angle and the skier will ski in a lower flex position unable to extend fully or effectively pressure the ski shovels. The hips must be moved aft to compensate for the increased lower leg forward angle. If the delta is too flat, the skier will need to compensate for the lack of leverage to flex the boot by flexing forward at the waist and will have difficulty remaining in balance.

Remember different binding brands and models have different stand height differentials and that a shorter boot sole vs. a longer boot sole on the same model binding will have different delta angles as the closer or farther apart the toe and heel are changes the angle.

My protocol for aligning the sagittal plane is to first assess and address the range of dorsiflexion by changing ramp angle (the internal boot board angle) and the forward cuff lean. Then I assess and adjust the delta angle to create the appropriate lower leg angle. Lastly, the 4th parameter involves the binding mount position which affects where we stand over the sweet spot of the skis.

IMO getting the sagittal plane aligned properly pays HUGE dividends!

ps. When you watch BB's animation the middle guy is not quite accurate in his extension. When we see a well aligned skier from the side the loueswer leg and spine should be fairly parallel as Bob's animation depicts, However; when the skier extends the spine and lower leg should remain parallel until they are in line as the knees and hips open rather than the spine go vertical. (parallelogram)

Note: forward cuff angle should not be used to change lower leg angle for the purpose of changing lower leg angle. The ramp angle and cuff angle should be coordinated to adjust for dorsiflexion. Once this is set, any change in lower leg angle should be adjusted with delta angle changes.

I was having a hell of a time pressuring the shovels yesterday, which is an issue for me anyway. I'm also hypermobile which seems opposite of someone who needs heel lifts BUT the original intent of them 2 years ago was to match my leg better to the delta of the boot. We then gas pedaled those boots.

I think I'll head up today for a few runs sans heel lifts. I hate taking them out because the heels of these boots are actually nice and snug on me and I don't want to mess with that. I guess my other option is to make some duct tape toe lifts but I'm never very comfortable messing with my binding interface like that.
 

Chris Geib

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Is the ankle hypermobile or is the foot hypermobile?
Do you actually run past dorsiflexion and the foot contorts?
...possibly giving the impression of more dorsiflexion vs what is actually there???????
 

cantunamunch

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I was having a hell of a time pressuring the shovels yesterday, which is an issue for me anyway. I'm also hypermobile which seems opposite of someone who needs heel lifts BUT the original intent of them 2 years ago was to match my leg better to the delta of the boot. We then gas pedaled those boots.

I think I'll head up today for a few runs sans heel lifts. I hate taking them out because the heels of these boots are actually nice and snug on me and I don't want to mess with that. I guess my other option is to make some duct tape toe lifts but I'm never very comfortable messing with my binding interface like that.
Have another look at what is written above. Heel lift inside the boot is not equivalent nor interchangeable with binding delta.
 
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AmyPJ

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Have another look at what is written above. Heel lift inside the boot is not equivalent nor interchangeable with binding delta.
??? I'm not following. Can you explain more? Is it because one is internal and one is external?
 
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AmyPJ

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Is the ankle hypermobile or is the foot hypermobile?
Do you actually run past dorsiflexion and the foot contorts?
...possibly giving the impression of more dorsiflexion vs what is actually there???????
I can dorsiflex quite a lot with a neutral foot. One thing equestrian's are taught to do from an early age is ride with heels down. I have always been able to drop mine a mind boggling distance. When I sit on the floor with legs straight and dorsiflex while keeping my feet neutral, I can close that ankle angle pretty far. Same when sitting neutral on a chair.
 

Tom K.

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Remove one heel lift, take two runs, remove both, repeat, then go visit Bud?
 
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AmyPJ

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Remove one heel lift, take two runs, remove both, repeat, then go visit Bud?
I'm going to take them out of each boot this morning and ski the same skis as yesterday. I am visiting a boot fitter in Park City tomorrow that Bud recommended :golfclap:
I have a feeling (and I think this is what cantunamunch was getting at) that I'll keep the heel lifts ultimately but end up with gas pedals on the boots. But we'll see!
 

cantunamunch

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??? I'm not following. Can you explain more? Is it because one is internal and one is external?
Look at the angle the back of the boot makes relative to the ski. Heel lifts can't change that angle, they just change the shape of your leg within it. Heel lifts or no heel lifts your knees can't move further back towards the tails of the skis.
 
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AmyPJ

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Look at the angle the back of the boot makes relative to the ski. Heel lifts can't change that angle, they just change the shape of your leg within it. Heel lifts or no heel lifts your knees can't move further back towards the tails of the skis.
Got it. That's what I thought. I have had that explained to me in the past, or very similarly. I'd love to do an experimental gas pedal today but really hate messing with the binding interface, particularly since I 1 degree canting plate on the left boot with no alteration to the boot itself because it still falls within the safe range of binding interface. I'm bummed that my favorite skis have bindings with a crappy angle on them for me. But at least it can be fixed.
 

Chris Geib

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I can dorsiflex quite a lot with a neutral foot. One thing equestrian's are taught to do from an early age is ride with heels down. I have always been able to drop mine a mind boggling distance. When I sit on the floor with legs straight and dorsiflex while keeping my feet neutral, I can close that ankle angle pretty far. Same when sitting neutral on a chair.

I'd work with Bud further on that then. If that is the case, it would seem that heel lift in the boot would be the opposite of what is desired...
 
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AmyPJ

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I took the heel lifts out and did 3 runs this morning (7000 vertical.) Groomers were as nice as I've ever seen, so it was a great day to get a feel for what I felt. I made notes.

*Turn initiation WAS easier. A LOT easier.
*"Belly" of turns felt less stable, but the heels of the boots WERE looser, as I feared they might be, so that might have contributed?
*Tails washed out less but transition felt more challenging (again, because heels were looser??)
*The boots felt softer. I wanted to tighten the upper buckles more than ever. It was quite warm (right at freezing) but it was almost exactly the same yesterday, so I don't think it had anything to do with the temps.

What this tells me and my not-so-educated brain is that I probably need gas pedals because the heel lifts align me in the boots themselves better, but they mess up my turn initiation.

I WISH I were going to visit Bud tomorrow, but it's Brent Amsbury in Park City, whom Bud recommended. I'm pretty excited to see what he does. I feel like I'm armed with a decent amount of feedback to give to him, which is one of the many benefits of being able to ski just about every day. I can experiment a lot. I owe a lot of the feedback "gathering" to the ideas and points you have all raised here for me in both of my threads. So, thank you!
 

Pat AKA mustski

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Heel lifts messed me up for two seasons before I ripped them out. I'm not saying that's the problem in your case - in fact, I am horribly far from an expert. Like you, I have narrow feet and struggle with skinny heels. More than one boot fitter has used heel lifts to take up room in my boots. That however, did not help my skiing.
 

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