Symptoms of Too Much Heel Lift?

[AmyPJ]

Bring the kids! I can vouch that it is worth the trip!

I was pondering that as I rode one of the lifts today. I could bring the little kid AND the big kid (my husband) since we did get married at North Lake Tahoe. It's a very special place to us!

That being said, my duct tape gas pedals on my boot soles were game changers today!!!!!!!! I hope it's not dangerous as all hell, because I have no idea when I will be able to get in with a fitter to get them permanently changed. I only skied 3 runs even though I wanted to keep skiing, it felt so good! I was worried about the safety of it.

Anyone care to chime in on if I'm taking a major risk skiing with them again tomorrow? I'd like to get in with the fitter Wednesday or Thursday.

 

[bud heishman]

Amy, I am honored you are even thinking about coming to Tahoe to ski with me! Rather than use duct tape, go to your local ski shop and ask for a "bontex" insole shim which is basically a pressed cardboard shim which come in two thicknesses. Ask for the thicker one which is about 3mm thick. Take some scissors or razor knife and cut yourself two rectangular shims approximately the same size as you AFD pad on your toe pieces. Lay these shims on your AFD then carefully step into your bindings so that the shim remains solidly on the AFD. This is better than using tape and will still permit release and is also the minimum thickness lifter plate available on the market to be screwed to your boot soles. Does your boot fitter have a router to router the toe and heel lugs on your boots back to specs after attaching a lifter plate to your boots?

 

[AmyPJ]

Amy, I am honored you are even thinking about coming to Tahoe to ski with me! Rather than use duct tape, go to your local ski shop and ask for a "bontex" insole shim which is basically a pressed cardboard shim which come in two thicknesses. Ask for the thicker one which is about 3mm thick. Take some scissors or razor knife and cut yourself two rectangular shims approximately the same size as you AFD pad on your toe pieces. Lay these shims on your AFD then carefully step into your bindings so that the shim remains solidly on the AFD. This is better than using tape and will still permit release and is also the minimum thickness lifter plate available on the market to be screwed to your boot soles. Does your boot fitter have a router to router the toe and heel lugs on your boots back to specs after attaching a lifter plate to your boots?

I really don't know that I could make it happen this season, Bud, but I'd love to! I only get to escape town once in awhile and my horse is showing in February in Scottsdale so right now, that's my one trip planned. But boy I know you could help me! I'd love ski with the Pug's, too.

Anyway, my fitter is ordering the lifters from Cantology for me and yes, he absolutely has the know how and equipment to router them as he has done a few times in the past for me. He actually told me to put the tape UNDER the current sole plates since they are removable so I cut pieces that matched around the screw hole patterns and did that. I DO have some of that bontex in two thicknesses as well. One thing that would stink about doing that is I ride the gondolas a LOT when I ski, so I'd have to fiddle with it a lot. I kept the tape at 5 layers thick which I believe equals approx 1mm?? That way they should be close to staying within specs, too. I do feel that I could use more lift, particularly on the right side so I'm happy they only come in 3mm or more. My fitter did also mention that the toe lifts will absolutely help speed up turn initiation. He really does know what he's doing, he's just so busy since he's the guy who works with the kids race team boots AND skis and owns the shop, so he's hard to get in with.

I'm excited because I feel like I'm close to getting things dialed in, and once that's done, I can really get to work on becoming a better skier! Even yesterday with the 1mm lift, I was able to roll so much more easily from edge to edge on cat tracks and flats. I even laid down a few railroad tracks which is REALLY hard for me. It was so much easier for me to get up and over my right ski, and it wasn't squirting out from under me. I was able to relax a lot more because I could finally "trust" that ski. Oh, and both tails quit washing out, too. I mean, it cleaned up SO many things.

Heading out today to ski several hours of bluebird goodness before the next series of storms rolls in later this week. Smooth groomers and Kastles are perfect for me to dial in on the changes.

Thanks so much for all the advice, Bud!

 

[Slim]

If your feet are low volume anyway. Couldn’t you use a full length insole/footboard etc inside the boot? Instead of outside? It would mean no issues with binding use or waar from walking, and snug up the fit inside the shell?

I am no bootfitter, so just asking why not on this one?

 

[bud heishman]

Sure Slim, that could help if the issue is overall volume and would move the heal up slightly snugger into the shells heel pocket, however sometimes there are other issues to address. Sometimes I pad above the heal and around the ankle, sometimes I add a heel lift, it all depends on the cause of the issue.

 

[AmyPJ]

Wow, thread resurrection!
My fore/aft WAS off. I finally got into a pair of Tecnica Mach 1 95 women's boots about a month ago (last year's version in a 22.5, as there were not current ones available anywhere that we could find) and I am BALANCED again! These boots have a more upright than the Head B5 RDs I was in last season, and the delta is also less steep.
I had some Boot Doc liners molded for the Head's that I was actually able to move into the Mach 1s. And interestingly, the Mach 1s feel lower volume, particularly over the instep.

No more fighting to turn, no more quad burn.

 

[LiquidFeet]

@AmyPJ, I am surprised you could move the BD liners (injected foam, right?) from one shell to another.
Did your bootfitter re-heat them so they would fit the Technicas, or did they just fit fine as they were?

 

[AmyPJ]

@AmyPJ, I am surprised you could move the BD liners (injected foam, right?) from one shell to another.
Did your bootfitter re-heat them so they would fit the Technicas, or did they just fit fine as they were?

Just moved them. I don't think you CAN heat them, as they are not a heated liner to begin with. Fitter said before trying the new boots that a few boots (including the Mach 1) might work due to the low volume of the boot. So far, so good!

 

[Mike Thomas]

I didn't read the thread, but one obvious 'symptom' of too much heel lift would be guys trying to stuff $1bills into your underpants. No one wants that, seriously not hygenic at all

(Did I log into the wrong website again?).

 

[cantunamunch]

I didn't read the thread, but one obvious 'symptom' of too much heel lift would be guys trying to stuff $1bills into your underpants. No one wants that, seriously not hygenic at all

(Did I log into the wrong website again?).

Raw cash is to Bitcoin like raw water is to Dasani.

 

[PTskier]

Does leg length matter if one skis with the technique putting the majority of the weight on the outside ski? I don't think it matters. Nor when skiing in deep snow. A straight run on firm snow, yep, but that can be compensated for while skiing.

Leg length discrepancy can be from pelvic rotation, not actual difference in the length of the leg bones. This can be corrected by manipulation by a chiropractor or a physical therapist. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2732247/ That said, I have actually have a leg length discrepancy and a 3 mm lift in the left orthotic for my shoes & hiking boots. I find no need for that in my ski boots.

As noted above, Jeannie Thoren was an advocate for heel lifts in almost every woman's ski boots. Jeannie did a lot of good for women skiers, but not in this regard.
http://jeanniethoren.com/theory/ A few people need heel lifts. Not a lot.

Bitcoins, the Dunning-Krugerrands of the day.
(Dunning & Kruger postulated about people too dumb to know how dumb they were. The Dunning-Kruger effect. We see it a lot.)

 

[cantunamunch]

I don't think I agree with the first statement - because starting from the neutral gliding case where limb length does matter, getting symmetrical CoM/weighted edge angles in the coronal plane requires different joint angles in the sagittal plane.

Taking just one of those joints to go on with, different ankle joint closure on the left foot when it's transitioning to fully weighted than the ankle joint closure on the right foot when transitioning to fully weighted - and you are effectively putting a double fall line into the person's skiing. One can see that the skier would reach limit stops of available correction much faster than when balanced to neutral.

Now, as to the scale of required correction - sure I can easily see that 3mm of correction over, say, 15-18 inches of hip distance is absolutely miniscule.

 

[Rod9301]

I don't think I agree with the first statement - because starting from the neutral gliding case where limb length does matter, getting symmetrical CoM/weighted edge angles in the coronal plane requires different joint angles in the sagittal plane.

Taking just one of those joints to go on with, different ankle joint closure on the left foot when it's transitioning to fully weighted than the ankle joint closure on the right foot when transitioning to fully weighted - and you are effectively putting a double fall line into the person's skiing. One can see that the skier would reach limit stops of available correction much faster than when balanced to neutral.

Now, as to the scale of required correction - sure I can easily see that 3mm of correction over, say, 15-18 inches of hip distance is absolutely miniscule.

no, leg length discrepancy does not matter.
In a turn, you have a short leg/long leg, so you just adjust.

The idea that you have to compensate must come from running or biking, like many other ideas, like skiing with the weight on the ball of your foot.

 

[surfandski]

Ha, I'm really glad this thread got resurrected 'cuz I've read thru it numerous times over the past year and was considering posting a similar topic just this past week. Due to a severe Pilon Fracture of my right ankle 3 years ago, I now have 2 plates and 16 screws in my Tibia and Fibula. I grew up in Tahoe but took 25 years off from skiing until last spring. I'm now in Colorado, halfway thru an 8 week ski trip teaching my wife and kids to ski and it's been going great. However, I have a 1/2" heel lift in both of my Lange RS130 boots and could use some help figuring out what I'm experiencing. Paging @bud heishman and others....

Yesterday was my 23rd day of the season (we arrived on Jan 4th) and I feel like I'm skiing as good as ever and adapted quickly to my first season on shaped skis. On moderate terrain I feel very balanced and can carve hard enough to pull some serious Gs and lay down railroad tracks from top to bottom. I'm limiting how much time I'm spending on bumps due to my ankle and the pain it causes but on moderate bump runs I'm skiing fairly well all things considered. However, when I get on really steep terrain I feel like I can't get far enough forward and I don't know if it's the heal lifts or improper technique. This was very obvious last Saturday when I was skiing 15" of leftovers at Steamboat in steep, tight trees and again a few days ago on steeper bumps at WP/MJ. I'd really focus on keeping my weight forward but no matter how hard I tried I'd find myself in the backseat. Not enough to fall, but enough that as my speed picked up, I'd find myself skiing defensively rather than charging. I feel like a total goon now on steep terrain regardless of whether it's hard packed groomers or more challenging terrain. If you were watching me from the chair on moderate terrain you'd probably say, "he's a pretty solid skier" but that goes out the window when it gets steep.

The other area that feels really off is in powder where I want to have my weight back a bit but the 1/2" of heel wedge seems to throw off my balance and wants to fight me. On my 108 skis it feels like my bindings are mounted too far forward in the powder.

Back to Amy's original topic.....what are the symptoms of too much heel lift? Is it usually more difficult to keep your weight forward in steeper terrain? Is there a generic formula where with a 1/4" heel lift one should mount their bindings a certain amount behind where someone without a heel lift would and then someone with my 1/2" heel lifts should mount them even further back? WITH THE SAME SKI, BOOT AND BINDING, WHAT WOULD CHANGE FROM NO HEEL LIFT TO 1/2" AND HOW WOULD THAT CHANGE FROM GREENS TO BLUES TO BLACKS? Both my 86mm Fischer Motive and 108 Line Supernatural are mounted on the recommended line and my Fischers feel really solid on all but really steep terrain but the Lines feel like something is off so I don't know if this is just that particular ski or the conditions that I tend to ski them in? I'm almost wondering if I should have a 2nd pair of zeppas with no heel lifts for powder days but these RS130s seem so soft that I'm concerned about hitting bumps and going bone on bone which, in my case, doesn't take much dorsiflexing to do.

Thanks so much and I really appreciate your help!

 

[L&AirC]

Surfandski,

I have thread on fore/aft balance and the things I tried and ending up with heel lift. I can't believe how much it has improved my ability to pressure the front of the ski. Had a race last night and even though I suck at racing, I skied quite well.

There is a sweet spot with heel lifts (or any other modification). I went from none, to too little to too much and ended up where I want to be. Is it possible another adjustment or two could make it better...yes, but right now I'm enjoying what I have so much, I don't want to mess with it.

The difference between too little to too much is only a few mm.

With something like a 4.5mm lift - I could pressure the bof but I could feel it wasn't enough

Went to 10mm and my skis started diverging. It felt horrible and I was helping run a race clinic so after I set the course, I immediately volunteered to be the video guy so no one would see it (who's going to listen to someone that can't keep their skis parallel?).

Added a piece of bontex to the too small lift that got me to about 6mm and I love it.

 

[AmyPJ]

What have I determined? That we're all different, and that a good fitter and some good video for that fitter can be gold.

Throw in a very patient significant other who is also an L3 who happens work at the shop that the fitter owns, and you get two people who listen and tell you to, "start over with a new boot. Here are a few I recommend." Get new boot, get dialed in by fitter with canting and cuff adjustments, then go SKI!

But, I will reiterate, we are all very different, and that what works for one of us might be a disaster for another. Sometimes, you just have to experiment.
For me, a race boot was a bad idea stance-wise as it was way too aggressive in the forward lean AND zeppa department. A boot without an adjustable cuff (Salomon) worked OK, but I really need an adjustable cuff.

Locking the foot down like a vise is also not a good idea. Your foot needs some mobility.

Oh, and boots can feel different from day-to-day. Temperature, humidity, snow conditions, water retention in the body, etc.

Wider skis make boot fit issues stand out more.

Stance issues can exacerbate fit issues. I had the opportunity to work with a PSIA examiner last weekend. He fixed my stance in one run. My boots suddenly fit better, or at least, the issues I've had with every single right boot in particular that I've skied in the past 3 years were GONE.

 

[cantunamunch]

A boot without an adjustable cuff (Salomon) worked OK, but I really need an adjustable cuff.
.

Heard somewhere (@cem ?) Solly was coming out with adjustable cuff pivots as a standard part

 

[AmyPJ]

Heard somewhere (@cem ?) Solly was coming out with adjustable cuff pivots as a standard part

That'd be a good thing.

 

[bud heishman]

Ha, I'm really glad this thread got resurrected 'cuz I've read thru it numerous times over the past year and was considering posting a similar topic just this past week. Due to a severe Pilon Fracture of my right ankle 3 years ago, I now have 2 plates and 16 screws in my Tibia and Fibula. I grew up in Tahoe but took 25 years off from skiing until last spring. I'm now in Colorado, halfway thru an 8 week ski trip teaching my wife and kids to ski and it's been going great. However, I have a 1/2" heel lift in both of my Lange RS130 boots and could use some help figuring out what I'm experiencing. Paging @bud heishman and others....

Yesterday was my 23rd day of the season (we arrived on Jan 4th) and I feel like I'm skiing as good as ever and adapted quickly to my first season on shaped skis. On moderate terrain I feel very balanced and can carve hard enough to pull some serious Gs and lay down railroad tracks from top to bottom. I'm limiting how much time I'm spending on bumps due to my ankle and the pain it causes but on moderate bump runs I'm skiing fairly well all things considered. However, when I get on really steep terrain I feel like I can't get far enough forward and I don't know if it's the heal lifts or improper technique. This was very obvious last Saturday when I was skiing 15" of leftovers at Steamboat in steep, tight trees and again a few days ago on steeper bumps at WP/MJ. I'd really focus on keeping my weight forward but no matter how hard I tried I'd find myself in the backseat. Not enough to fall, but enough that as my speed picked up, I'd find myself skiing defensively rather than charging. I feel like a total goon now on steep terrain regardless of whether it's hard packed groomers or more challenging terrain. If you were watching me from the chair on moderate terrain you'd probably say, "he's a pretty solid skier" but that goes out the window when it gets steep.

The other area that feels really off is in powder where I want to have my weight back a bit but the 1/2" of heel wedge seems to throw off my balance and wants to fight me. On my 108 skis it feels like my bindings are mounted too far forward in the powder.

Back to Amy's original topic.....what are the symptoms of too much heel lift? Is it usually more difficult to keep your weight forward in steeper terrain? Is there a generic formula where with a 1/4" heel lift one should mount their bindings a certain amount behind where someone without a heel lift would and then someone with my 1/2" heel lifts should mount them even further back? WITH THE SAME SKI, BOOT AND BINDING, WHAT WOULD CHANGE FROM NO HEEL LIFT TO 1/2" AND HOW WOULD THAT CHANGE FROM GREENS TO BLUES TO BLACKS? Both my 86mm Fischer Motive and 108 Line Supernatural are mounted on the recommended line and my Fischers feel really solid on all but really steep terrain but the Lines feel like something is off so I don't know if this is just that particular ski or the conditions that I tend to ski them in? I'm almost wondering if I should have a 2nd pair of zeppas with no heel lifts for powder days but these RS130s seem so soft that I'm concerned about hitting bumps and going bone on bone which, in my case, doesn't take much dorsiflexing to do.

Thanks so much and I really appreciate your help!

Call me or message me or better yet come to Tahoe! Careful zeroing in on Heel lift alone and associating it with binding placement or you could really screw your balance/stance up.
bud

 

[tch]

Amy, "he fixed my stance in one run".... please elaborate. Fore/aft? Width? How?
Thx.