Simplest way to teach newer skiers?

[LiquidFeet]

Thank you for all reply. I should add, that my wife was lessons with 4 different instructors (about 6 hours). Unfortunately they could not "see" she big concerns or could not find a way for fear of mountain space, steep slope etc. It ended with rupture of knees collateral ligaments. She was discouraged and need a lot of patience and times.

I will show you a young woman after 30 hours lessons with ski instructor, to illustrate what we write about in this topic and how important this issue is.

Oh. No wonder she's untrusting of ski instructors. I bet they contradicted each other. So she might have been confused. Or just bad instructors.... Or on threatening terrain.

 

[Chris V.]

The whole subject of "rotary skills" is fraught, because it embraces several very different types of movement. Simply allowing the skis to make a brushed or skidded turn can be called a rotary skill, although it's really a result of a combination of body movements. The ability to control the turning of the femurs in the hip sockets can be called a rotary skill, although that turning usually results only indirectly in the turning of the skis, usually through that femur rotation promoting edging. Control of turning the feet solely via the lower legs and subtalar joints can be called a rotary skill. That may result in a pivoting of the skis, or have a different effect, depending on the situation.

All of which demonstrates that while we may be of the view that PSIA has overemphasized rotary skills, no one skill can be viewed in isolation. They're all intertwined, and none should be neglected.

Exaggerated edge angles from an oversized wedge will only happen if the instructor allows it. I agree, you can't go there.

So...there's a case of the skier needing to refine control of the turning of the femurs, so as to be able to adjust the wedge size and degree of edging in that wedge as desired.

This brings up the "Other Balance" that maybe needs more attention at the beginner level and that is "Lateral Balance"

Lateral Balance and edge angles are closely tied through both inclination and angulation. This is where the wedge can become problematic in that the spreading of the legs inclines the COM (in 2 directions) relative to the femurs and as the turn develops added inclination (leaning up hill) in defense of Gravity only makes matters worse.

So angulation now needs to be a teaching focus, allowing the joints of the foot and leg to be the dominant driver of increased and decreased edge angle.

If I understand you correctly, we're speaking here principally of "knee angulation" created through foot tipping. The need to start developing rudimentary angulation skills arises as soon as the student starts arcing wedge turns farther across the fall line on a slightly steeper slope. If the student remains stiffly in the initial wedge posture, he'll tip outward and start to "highside." One instinctive reaction to that may be to relax the edge angle of the outside ski so as to let it slip outward and reduce centripetal force. The skier then fails in the quest to "complete" the turn. Instead, the skier needs to maintain the bit of angulation of the outside leg that should be a natural consequence of correctly creating the wedge, while shortening the inside leg so that the center of mass can be inclined inward by the amount necessary to maintain balance against centripetal force and the force of gravity.

I will submit that building edge angles via angulation is easier that releasing them and since the wedge presets edge angle it is important that angulation be the focus vs just separating the legs.
...IMO, this is where we introduce the advanced skiing concept of Outside Leg Relaxation OLR. There is no reason beginners can't embrace this concept at a rudimentary level.

Well...I don't think that those of us who have been skiing a while find it physically difficult. It's mostly just a relaxation move, after all. But it's definitely mentally difficult for many new skiers. They need to wrap their head around the idea of giving up balance, giving up perceived control, and letting themselves accelerate down the mountain, without, it first seems to new skiers, any brakes. They need to discover that the new outside ski actually will catch up to them and give them a new point of balance--every time. It's good to first learn this on a very gentle slope, because then the "catching up" happens quickly. It takes a little longer as the slope gets steeper.

But yep, before you can release, you need to have something to release from, and that means angulation adequate to maintain grip.

And all of this can be done in a wedge.

Agreed locked edges via a wide wedge is out. However, the implementation of angulation at low speeds should provide for a full, manageable range of edge angle so having a mini progression to teach this set of movements is probably a good idea.

And then...as the skier becomes more confident, the skier can be encouraged to make the wedge smaller and smaller. (Or it may happen spontaneously!) The need for the outrigger diminishes. The skier discovers that the inside ski really isn't doing much. The skier discovers that having that large pre-set steering angle at the transition isn't necessary. The skier finds that as the slope gets steeper, that inside ski in wedge orientation really starts getting in the way in the last phase of the turn, just wants to push him off the hill.

Agree, we are all looking to shape the turn, but centripetal force does not exist unless the ski creates it. As I have stated multiple times, it is a matter of intentional vs unintentional resultants. It is difficult for someone to control a force inadvertently generated because of a desire to redirect the skis vs managing a process that actually creates a turn.

And what's necessary for the ski to create centripetal force? Edge angle.

Full circle.

 

[gabrik]

Oh. No wonder she's untrusting of ski instructors. I bet they contradicted each other. So she might have been confused. Or just bad instructors.... Or on threatening terrain.

Your diagnosis is 100% accurate, a little bit of every thing.

 

[JESinstr]

The whole subject of "rotary skills" is fraught, because it embraces several very different types of movement. Simply allowing the skis to make a brushed or skidded turn can be called a rotary skill, although it's really a result of a combination of body movements. The ability to control the turning of the femurs in the hip sockets can be called a rotary skill, although that turning usually results only indirectly in the turning of the skis, usually through that femur rotation promoting edging. Control of turning the feet solely via the lower legs and subtalar joints can be called a rotary skill. That may result in a pivoting of the skis, or have a different effect, depending on the situation.

I don't believe we allow the skis to do anything. Today's ski is a sophisticated tool and how it performs is the result of the skier (and the skill level of the craftsman) IMO. Additionally, rotary can be dominant or complementary depending on the intended function being carried out. That is why I don't initially teach rotary nor do I get into the "physiological weeds" about it. But when rotary happens, I make sure it happens around the arch of the foot and not from the heel.
So we have different but not major difference of opinions on this.

All of which demonstrates that while we may be of the view that PSIA has overemphasized rotary skills, no one skill can be viewed in isolation. They're all intertwined, and none should be neglected.

I can agree to that.

JESinstr said:
Exaggerated edge angles from an oversized wedge will only happen if the instructor allows it. I agree, you can't go there.

So...there's a case of the skier needing to refine control of the turning of the femurs, so as to be able to adjust the wedge size and degree of edging in that wedge as desired.

Yes. My comment was pointed at teaching from a wide wedge where edge angles are high and tend to get locked in due to the straight leg configuration. Not good. Sorry for not being clear.

If I understand you correctly, we're speaking here principally of "knee angulation" created through foot tipping. The need to start developing rudimentary angulation skills arises as soon as the student starts arcing wedge turns farther across the fall line on a slightly steeper slope. If the student remains stiffly in the initial wedge posture, he'll tip outward and start to "highside." One instinctive reaction to that may be to relax the edge angle of the outside ski so as to let it slip outward and reduce centripetal force. The skier then fails in the quest to "complete" the turn. Instead, the skier needs to maintain the bit of angulation of the outside leg that should be a natural consequence of correctly creating the wedge, while shortening the inside leg so that the center of mass can be inclined inward by the amount necessary to maintain balance against centripetal force and the force of gravity.

Well stated

JESinstr said:
I will submit that building edge angles via angulation is easier that releasing them and since the wedge presets edge angle it is important that angulation be the focus vs just separating the legs.
...IMO, this is where we introduce the advanced skiing concept of Outside Leg Relaxation OLR. There is no reason beginners can't embrace this concept at a rudimentary level.

Well...I don't think that those of us who have been skiing a while find it physically difficult. It's mostly just a relaxation move, after all. But it's definitely mentally difficult for many new skiers. They need to wrap their head around the idea of giving up balance, giving up perceived control, and letting themselves accelerate down the mountain, without, it first seems to new skiers, any brakes. They need to discover that the new outside ski actually will catch up to them and give them a new point of balance--every time. It's good to first learn this on a very gentle slope, because then the "catching up" happens quickly. It takes a little longer as the slope gets steeper.
But yep, before you can release, you need to have something to release from, and that means angulation adequate to maintain grip.
And all of this can be done in a wedge.

For Instructor's teaching beginners and intermediates I can't over emphasize what you wrote above. Simply put, many key movement patterns are not intuitive and forces at play incent bad behavior. Hence our value add.

JESinstr said:
Agreed locked edges via a wide wedge is out. However, the implementation of angulation at low speeds should provide for a full, manageable range of edge angle so having a mini progression to teach this set of movements is probably a good idea.

And then...as the skier becomes more confident, the skier can be encouraged to make the wedge smaller and smaller. (Or it may happen spontaneously!) The need for the outrigger diminishes. The skier discovers that the inside ski really isn't doing much. The skier discovers that having that large pre-set steering angle at the transition isn't necessary. The skier finds that as the slope gets steeper, that inside ski in wedge orientation really starts getting in the way in the last phase of the turn, just wants to push him off the hill.

And what's necessary for the ski to create centripetal force? Edge angle.

Full circle.

I will just add that teaching independent leg angulation aimed at laterally reducing edge angle facilitates getting rid of the out rigger in addition to making the wedge smaller.

 

[gabrik]

I return from Kronplatz area and I have question...I saw instructors on the mild blue piste and they always use "banana" position (angulation), low speed, mild piste. Is this results methodology, habit or other? I want know if i use mild piste and slow speed, should i angulation my body? If only when requires it my speed, steep slopes etc.?

 

[oldschoolskier]

Fastest way to teach.

Keep it safe and fun. Encourage when required, hold back when required.

Balance, comfort and confidence on skis is important, the rest comes easier once that hurdle is overcome.

I'm not a certified instructor, but have taught numerous friends and family to ski (and ski well) along with several occasions helped stranded skiers get down when abandoned by skiing partners in tough situations. In all experiences, I've always built on what they are good at to give comfort and confidence followed by balance. Immediate improvement occurs at the end of one run.

The rest of techniques and details develop as fast or slow as the individual requires.

One other important note, individuals all learn differently don't get caught in being fixated on one or two methods of teaching, use whatever methods work to get the concept across.

 

[oldschoolskier]

The whole subject of "rotary skills" is fraught, because it embraces several very different types of movement. Simply allowing the skis to make a brushed or skidded turn can be called a rotary skill, although it's really a result of a combination of body movements. The ability to control the turning of the femurs in the hip sockets can be called a rotary skill, although that turning usually results only indirectly in the turning of the skis, usually through that femur rotation promoting edging. Control of turning the feet solely via the lower legs and subtalar joints can be called a rotary skill. That may result in a pivoting of the skis, or have a different effect, depending on the situation.

All of which demonstrates that while we may be of the view that PSIA has overemphasized rotary skills, no one skill can be viewed in isolation. They're all intertwined, and none should be neglected.

So...there's a case of the skier needing to refine control of the turning of the femurs, so as to be able to adjust the wedge size and degree of edging in that wedge as desired.

If I understand you correctly, we're speaking here principally of "knee angulation" created through foot tipping. The need to start developing rudimentary angulation skills arises as soon as the student starts arcing wedge turns farther across the fall line on a slightly steeper slope. If the student remains stiffly in the initial wedge posture, he'll tip outward and start to "highside." One instinctive reaction to that may be to relax the edge angle of the outside ski so as to let it slip outward and reduce centripetal force. The skier then fails in the quest to "complete" the turn. Instead, the skier needs to maintain the bit of angulation of the outside leg that should be a natural consequence of correctly creating the wedge, while shortening the inside leg so that the center of mass can be inclined inward by the amount necessary to maintain balance against centripetal force and the force of gravity.

Well...I don't think that those of us who have been skiing a while find it physically difficult. It's mostly just a relaxation move, after all. But it's definitely mentally difficult for many new skiers. They need to wrap their head around the idea of giving up balance, giving up perceived control, and letting themselves accelerate down the mountain, without, it first seems to new skiers, any brakes. They need to discover that the new outside ski actually will catch up to them and give them a new point of balance--every time. It's good to first learn this on a very gentle slope, because then the "catching up" happens quickly. It takes a little longer as the slope gets steeper.

But yep, before you can release, you need to have something to release from, and that means angulation adequate to maintain grip.

And all of this can be done in a wedge.

And then...as the skier becomes more confident, the skier can be encouraged to make the wedge smaller and smaller. (Or it may happen spontaneously!) The need for the outrigger diminishes. The skier discovers that the inside ski really isn't doing much. The skier discovers that having that large pre-set steering angle at the transition isn't necessary. The skier finds that as the slope gets steeper, that inside ski in wedge orientation really starts getting in the way in the last phase of the turn, just wants to push him off the hill.

And what's necessary for the ski to create centripetal force? Edge angle.

Full circle.

This is my 58th season skiing, so bear with me here, equipment has changed over that many years, but what is required to be extremely good hasn't changed.

The one thing that has remained the constant in the sequence of teaching is balance (front to back and side to side). It is different than standing or walking without skis and boots.

No balance, no confidence, no learning what ever you want to teach them.

Old straight skis required you to learn in a certain sequence of skills to progress, modern skis, anything that gets the skis turning is valid and allows you to build from there. You still need to learn the skills to advance but the sequence is no longer critical, the end result is.

One word.

BALANCE

This is the foundation of skiing, the rest is just a technique that changes as equipment changes.

 

[gabrik]

This is my 58th season skiing, so bear with me here, equipment has changed over that many years, but what is required to be extremely good hasn't changed.

The one thing that has remained the constant in the sequence of teaching is balance (front to back and side to side). It is different than standing or walking without skis and boots.

No balance, no confidence, no learning what ever you want to teach them.

Old straight skis required you to learn in a certain sequence of skills to progress, modern skis, anything that gets the skis turning is valid and allows you to build from there. You still need to learn the skills to advance but the sequence is no longer critical, the end result is.

One word.

BALANCE

This is the foundation of skiing, the rest is just a technique that changes as equipment changes.

I understand that always (when i can), i should work on the balance, balance, balance...and stance

 

[Mendieta]

I understand that always (when i can), i should work on the balance, balance, balance...and stance

You and all of us. This is why drills that challenge our balance (javelins, little hops, thousand steps, etc) are so good. To your earlier post: it is very well known that speed on groomers hides mistakes. Really good balance at really slow speeds is ... well, really hard Conversely, if you ski on a weekend and you look at a groomer of *any* denomination/color/difficulty, you will see plenty of people who can't ski, coming down real fast.The smooth surface allows them to survive the run at very high speed. Of course, they are out of control and therefore dangerous to themselves and to others.

By the way, most people do drills on moderate slopes. Look up Mikaela Shiffrin on Youtube doing drills. No crazy speed or steepness.

 

[Chris V.]

The drills I'll do on steeper slopes are the slow motion ones. Like two-footed releases. The pitch does add an interesting element.

 

[oldschoolskier]

360 spins and related drills forces balance and edge feel control. I still do this at the start of every season and at least one in each direction each day out. Demoing new skis, one spin each direction, sets the reference for the edge feel and balance.

New skiers simple side slip drills.

The rest is technique.

 

[JFB]

<snip> if the PSIA hasn't updated their progression or methods in the past 25 years, something is wrong.

I lost track of this thread before the direct to parallel discussion came up but it popped up on a web search.

I think something is wrong. IMO, teaching a wedge or even letting our guests perform a wedge is a great disservice to them. If you have ever tried to get someone out of wedging, you know what I mean. I stopped using a wedge a couple of years ago and now use my own progression that goes directly to parallel. Among those I have taught, it is easier for the guest, works faster, has a much higher success rate, they're not in the back seat and they don't even know how to wedge.

My $0.02.

 

[markojp]

I lost track of this thread before the direct to parallel discussion came up but it popped up on a web search.

I think something is wrong. IMO, teaching a wedge or even letting our guests perform a wedge is a great disservice to them. If you have ever tried to get someone out of wedging, you know what I mean. I stopped using a wedge a couple of years ago and now use my own progression that goes directly to parallel. Among those I have taught, it is easier for the guest, works faster, has a much higher success rate, they're not in the back seat and they don't even know how to wedge.

My $0.02.

It really depends on the teaching terrain. There's also a very very large difference between a gliding and braking wedge.

 

[JFB]

It really depends on the teaching terrain. There's also a very very large difference between a gliding and braking wedge.

Agreed. OTOH, if they know that a wedge can slow them down, when they get onto something a just little bit steeper, they will very quickly teach themselves a braking wedge without any instruction at all. And why do we want to actively teach them to stand on the inside ski as they try to turn? That's not an insubstantial component of the curse of wedging.

 

[James]

I think something is wrong. IMO, teaching a wedge or even letting our guests perform a wedge is a great disservice to them.

If you don’t have very gentle terrain, direct to parallel is near impossible. Unless you’re the only ones there. Then it’s only frustrating and dangerous for one.

 

[Chris V.]

IMO, teaching a wedge or even letting our guests perform a wedge is a great disservice to them. If you have ever tried to get someone out of wedging, you know what I mean. I stopped using a wedge a couple of years ago and now use my own progression that goes directly to parallel.

Pluses and minuses. It can be a tough choice, based on weighing many factors, inherent in the student and otherwise.

 

[jt10000]

I stopped using a wedge a couple of years ago

How do you/your guests stop or slow down in a lift line?

 

[LiquidFeet]

How do you/your guests stop or slow down in a lift line?

They watch others and copy. IOW they wedge.

 

[LiquidFeet]

It really depends on the teaching terrain.

This is not said enough. Teaching terrain determines a lot about how one teaches beginners.

 

[jt10000]

This is not said enough. Teaching terrain determines a lot about how one teaches beginners.

My boy's first experience on alpine skis was in a very shallow area at Mountain Creek. It actually sloped upwards at the end which helped people stop. I think they call the area "terrain-based learning area." He was very little so I just told him to look where he wanted to go, and he did that, basically parallel, with no problems. He actually did a hockey stop once by accident trying to not hit something (he could not replicate that feat though).

Later on, on a real bunny hill he had to wedge in order to turn/not go too fast.