Simplest way to teach newer skiers?

[LiquidFeet]

^^ an added element to consider: if the feet are swimming around inside the boots, functional tension in the foot and ankle area won't edge the skis. It will edge the feet, but not the boot and not the skis.

Why oh why do ski schools allow the rental shop to put people in the wrong boots? I suspect it's caused by turf wars between ski school directors and rental shop managers.

 

[Disinterested]

^^ an added element to consider: if the feet are swimming around inside the boots, functional tension in the foot and ankle area won't edge the skis. It will edge the feet, but not the boot and not the skis.

Why oh why do ski schools allow the rental shop to put people in the wrong boots? I suspect it's caused by turf wars between ski school directors and rental shop managers.

That's not really it no.

Consider it from a lot of different perspectives.

The first is, the school can't control where you get your boots. So I've had guests turn up with boots that belonged to their uncle 20 years ago. Rented somewhere at home and brought with. Rented at a non-resort retail location in town. etc. etc.

Secondly, the a beginner guest has no frame of reference for fit. So beginner guests frequently ask to keep sizing up. They also tend to be pretty casual about advice like 'don't wear three pairs of socks in the boot'. They've often just got off a plane with swolen feet. There's a lot going on there.

Thirdly - when rental guys do a lot of their sizing its when there's a stack of people lined up. And - rental guys make dogshit and turn over a lot. So the incentives are not aligned to tell guests what they don't need to hear and wear a more uncomfortable fit.

Fourth - rental boot stock is highly imperfect! I only fit well in 1-2 boots on the market in the right length for me or else I have to ski a mondo point higher in a boot with lower volume.

Fifth - a beginner lesson can function in most boot situations that aren't directly pain provoking because performance requirements are not that big.

A turf war doesn't result in worse fits - I mean, there is no turf war. Ski school directors can just ask nicely for cooperation. Here's what really makes a difference:

Ski instructors are present at the fitting. More workable in a private setting, or if:

Rental is included with the beginner lesson and the rental location for beginners is close to the beginner hill. That way you can fix any issue straight away and change the boot quickly if it's wrong/performance considerations merit a tighter boot.

 

[LiquidFeet]

....Here's what really makes a difference:
Ski instructors are present at the fitting. ....

I worked at a mountain where that was the case. The beginner lesson started at the rental shop, and the instructor was there to help the beginners choose the right boot. All the boots were out on self-serve shelves. It worked well for beginners who were guided by their instructors.

Not so good for the rest of the guests renting boots. They were arranged by shoe size. You can imagine how that worked.

I mentioned turf war because at one of my mountains the SSD and rental shop manager were definitely turf-conscious and at odds with each other. Our SSD ordered the instructors not to ever, ever tell skiers they were put in a boot too big for them... and not to send them back nor take them back to the shop to get smaller boots.

The SSD gave us that order because the rental shop manager demanded it of him angrily, shouting out loud in his face one day in front of everyone in the locker room. All because one of us did send someone back to the shop to get smaller boots.

 

[JESinstr]

JESinstr, now you've done it. We're deep into the weeds.

Yes, we are definitely in the weeds. But since 90+ percent of snow sports instructors are assigned beginners, I would think that discussing how we deliver the best possible product to our customers would be a topic of interest to those instructors who participate here.

So let's come up for some air
1. The shaped ski has the potential to change the traditional PSIA Progression.
2. The skill set has not changed, just the opportunity to change the priority in which we implement them.
3. We must understand, that although no skills are implemented in isolation when performing a maneuver on skis, some skills are active, and others are passive.

IMO it's a good discussion to have provided we don't fall asleep in our beer!

 

[Chris V.]

1. The shaped ski has the potential to change the traditional PSIA Progression.
2. The skill set has not changed, just the opportunity to change the priority in which we implement them.
3. We must understand, that although no skills are implemented in isolation when performing a maneuver on skis, some skills are active, and others are passive.

Emphasis added. It might be a matter of degree...but I would agree that with modern skis, there's much less need for an active rotational movement to start a turn. If that's what you're mainly driving at. I said somewhere upthread that IMHO, the PSIA training I'd received overemphasized teaching rotary movements at the expense of other skills.

 

[Nancy Hummel]

I emphasize femur rotation.

• When you rotate your femur in the direction of new turn, your foot tips to the inside while the femur is being turned, and as you turn across the incline, the grounds fall away from the little toe side of the uphill ski and the big toe side of the downhill ski and at the end of the turn, you end up on big toe edge of the downhill ski and little toe edge of the uphill ski.

So, I teach steering to an edge. The combination of the femur rotation and hill angle allow the skis to be tipped appropriately.

I also incorporate flexing/softening the new inside knee. This is a simple way to let the weight go to the outside ski and help with foot/foot pressure

I like this approach because it incorporates the appropriate skill blend for the terrain.

I believe that having the ability to use as much edge as necessary for whatever you are going to do is critical.

I also like it because when you get to intro to bumps, the concept of leg rotation and a flatter ski are not foreign to people. The concept of using only as much edge as you need in any given situation is what I like to promote.

I seem to spend alot of time with newer bump skiers working on leg rotation and using less edge than what they are used to. Once people have solid leg rotation and flexion/extension skills, it is easy to work on more tipping skills. I use uphill arcs, railroad tracks on flats etc.

It is easy to ask people to do too much. I try to keep things as simple as possible and with as few directions as possible.

 

[gabrik]

For sure, most turns are a blend of the carving function of the ski and rotary, but for a beginner to get the most "bang for the buck" out of a lesson, what should the primary focus be? I think we all agree that a dynamically centered balance stance is a prerequisite, so this is about what comes next.

For me, it is all about teaching beginners GRIP which is focusing the carving function of the ski through edging and pressure management first and Rotary as complementary but not an initiator.

Please, for me this is fundamental question, becouse my wife is at the beginning ski road. Should she wedge on the flat if edge ski (maybe both)?

Edit: i ask, becouse in my country dominates "school" wedge on the flat ski.

 

[Jilly]

The first thing she needs to learn is to steer the skis. This is easier on a flat ski. The wedge gives her stability. As she gains confidence then grip can come into play. Grip on the downhill ski is the ultimate goal, but that will take time. Don't force it, let it happen.

 

[Mendieta]

Should she wedge on the flat if edge ski (maybe both)?

Could you clarify that sentence, please? There seems to be a typo. Regardless, as a new adult skier less than 10 years ago who still remembers: the ONE thing that changed everything at the very beginning for me was one of the steps mentioned by @Nancy Hummel in post #66: to turn left, bend the left knee (as in bringing that leg slightly up), which directs pressure to the right foot. My observation is that people starting to ski are always on a wedge, and always with a bit of inside edge on both skis (I don't know how you could avoid it, physically). So, just releasing the pressure on one foot produces a turn towards that side.

The post you are answering to is a bit of a technical discussion among instructors: in what order develop rotary vs edging skills. I think it's unlikely to help you help your wife. The best thing for her is to find lessons, no question. The second best thing is basic hints.There seems to be ample consensus that couples stay happier when none of them is teaching the other how to ski . At least, when none of them is a certified instructor.

 

[JESinstr]

Please, for me this is fundamental question, becouse my wife is at the beginning ski road. Should she wedge on the flat if edge ski (maybe both)?

Edit: i ask, becouse in my country dominates "school" wedge on the flat ski.

Traditionally we taught a braking wedge then the industry went to the gliding wedge.
IMO, with the advent of the modern shaped ski, we have an opportunity to invoke the ski's intended design properties into our progression right from the start and it is all about establishing grip (edging skills) so the ski can do it's job of converting straight travel (default) into circular travel (Carving).

For me, the change in teaching methodology is that I no longer promote Rotary as a primary action but rather as a supporting action. The reason being is that for beginners, Rotary destroys grip and puts the skier in limbo between grip and sliding (skidding). An advanced skier can handle this and usually skids intentionally, but a beginner often has multiple issues (including fear) because skidding is a complex blend of skills, often happens unintentionally and there is no solid base to work from.

With the limited time we have with beginning skiers, establishing an operational, edged center balanced stance is priority 1 and the 2nd priority is for the skier to experience the ski turning them via edge and pressure management between the 2 skis. From there, they can be introduced to INTENTIONAL skidding (steering) by introducing rotary from a solid base vs an unstable sliding base. Ironically, most important skill development is about learning how to control the release from the skill. How to properly release energy is far more important than creating it.

 

[Nancy Hummel]

Please, for me this is fundamental question, becouse my wife is at the beginning ski road. Should she wedge on the flat if edge ski (maybe both)?

Edit: i ask, becouse in my country dominates "school" wedge on the flat ski.

As others have mentioned, invest in lessons with a good instructor. What you spend now, will get your wife on the right foot (no pun intended). Bad habits are hard to break later. It may be helpful for you to participate in or observe the the lesson (if that works with your wife). It is amazing what you can learn by observing a quality lesson.

 

[gabrik]

Thank you for all reply. I should add, that my wife was lessons with 4 different instructors (about 6 hours). Unfortunately they could not "see" she big concerns or could not find a way for fear of mountain space, steep slope etc. It ended with rupture of knees collateral ligaments. She was discouraged and need a lot of patience and times.

I will show you a young woman after 30 hours lessons with ski instructor, to illustrate what we write about in this topic and how important this issue is.

 

[gabrik]

Only today

 

[BLiP]

The shaped ski has the potential to change the traditional PSIA Progression.

Shaped skis have been around for at least 25 years at this point. I'm out of the teaching loop, but if the PSIA hasn't updated their progression or methods in the past 25 years, something is wrong.

 

[Mendieta]

Thank you for all reply. I should add, that my wife was lessons with 4 different instructors (about 6 hours).

Sorry about her injury! Did the instruction get her to the point where she can turn in parallel? Your video is showing a different person, right? It seems to me like the way for her to lose the fear is to learn how to control speed by turning, in really really mild runs. And parallel turns are so efficient at that. If she can add hockey stops to the paralel turns, and progresses terrain slowly, she'll be ruling the whole mountain before she knows. But patience is key!

 

[gabrik]

Sorry about her injury! Did the instruction get her to the point where she can turn in parallel?

No

Your video is showing a different person, right?

Yes, this is only example.

It seems to me like the way for her to lose the fear is to learn how to control speed by turning, in really really mild runs. And parallel turns are so efficient at that. If she can add hockey stops to the paralel turns, and progresses terrain slowly, she'll be ruling the whole mountain before she knows. But patience is key!

Yes, she is stuck in wedge. Now i think that she need "Wedge Christie" and maybe woman instructor.

 

[Mendieta]

Yes, she is stuck in wedge. Now i think that she need "Wedge Christie" and maybe woman instructor.

Thanks - I think you might want to start a thread to help you guide the progression in her instruction? Here in ski school, and hopefully some of our wonderful instructors can help. Yes, a female instructor might help for sure. And, from my experience learning, what helped me lose fear was control, through parallel turns, abitilty to side-slip and ability to hockey stop. But then again, I'd much rather have instructors opine. A dedicated thread is probably best.

 

[justplanesteve]

We don't have a magic carpet or even a rope tow, so NE's get to side step as soon as they are comfortable "walking" (sliding) around a figure 8 on flat terrain, then on slight rise.

Students in my groups (except large groups of the very young ones who don't all really grasp the concept immediately) sideslip early in the progression - certainly starting to have them start trying in the second lesson, sometimes in a good group late in the 1st lesson. It is not a completion item for which they get a gold star at the end, it's just something i demonstrate, have them all try for a bit, then move back to other things. Then throw at them again at the top of a slope after the lift ride. Or when several are doing things that indicate that a break with some side slipping would be useful. Our beginner slope has steep sections both sides, after the flat at the top. So side slipping is useful "right away" if not absolutely necessary.

I insert small parts of many skiing motions at random times while focusing on keeping them forward, active (& active feet), and engaged. Gradually some start to incorporate bits they didn't know they knew and the flow improves all around. I've mentioned in the past that of course i demo and have students work with a gliding wedge, and understand how to use it to stop from slow speeds as will be necessary for all of us in lift lines, e.g. But after the first lesson, i don't much use (demo) the gliding wedge myself. If they are following me, i usually ski parallel sometime into the second lesson. I don't want them to copy me in a perfect gliding wedge, i want them to learn to ski & get ever-more comfortable & active with their legs & feet. Second lesson, they are going to get intro to 1,000 steps, too at some point where (green) terrain is wide and the slope less steep. I play it as a game (even with adults, though i can explain more to them). Just one more thing that gets thrown out there, then brought up again occasionally in later runs. Stork turns by the 3rd lesson. Keep them trying interesting things and their feet will learn. Their conscious brain can catch up later.

I stopped skiing in the early 90's (last century ) because no one in my family or that i knew ever developed an interest. Spring '21 a friend in the flying club got me to go out a couple days with him on my old straight skis (I did get new boots) Winter '21/22 i took a seniors refresher & learned how to ski modern shaped skis. 22/23 entering my 70th winter (last year) i decided to scare myself by becoming an instructor. A few things that occurred to me observing myself: a lot of NE's and many casual skiers don't really have the developed musculature to do the things many of us do "naturally" nor the awarenes of using their legs and feet for much more than (non athletic) walking & casual bike riding. So a range of activities that won't strain weak or unaware muscles but starts putting some awareness into them is important. For instance, my wife says i even walk much better for having spent a season on the snow thinking/ engaging in below hip motion.

The beginner terrain for adults required instructors to have their students make their first straight runs on a long shallow rise. They had to side-step up all the way. He had all 18 students stand side by side along the edge of this rise facing him. Then he had them hold hands. Once they all were connected this way (no poles), he showed them how to side-step up. They all made it to the top. No one slid backwards or forwards and no one fell. I watched amazed as 18 people holding hands side-stepped up a long distance, for the first time, with no chaos.

This is exciting! - have you ever tried it? Say even with groups of 7 or 8? Any tips, cautions, etc?
Assume they all face the same direction across slope? OTOH, alternate facing could work?
At the top, do they simply ski out from the position in which they stop? Or is there a further action to get them aligned along the top/rim?

I like an exercise where the top-most in such a stack skis a C shape to me ending facing the opposite direction. Then the next below her, etc. Then do it again the other direction.
But pretty sure that won't happen first or even 4th trip up...... So at the point of skiing down, what are the directions/exercises to keep a cohesive group - the ones that can turn, the ones that lose control and decide what they heck, they're bombing it until gravel in the parking lot arrests the run, and everyone in between?

smt

 

[Chris V.]

It is all about establishing grip (edging skills) so the ski can do it's job of converting straight travel (default) into circular travel (Carving).

...Skidding is a complex blend of skills, often happens unintentionally and there is no solid base to work from.

With the limited time we have with beginning skiers, establishing an operational, edged center balanced stance is priority 1 and the 2nd priority is for the skier to experience the ski turning them via edge and pressure management between the 2 skis. From there, they can be introduced to INTENTIONAL skidding (steering) by introducing rotary from a solid base vs an unstable sliding base.

As we've often discussed in this forum, getting new skiers centered in their fore-aft balance is the essential first step, without which achieving ski performance won't be possible. Next, if we are following a wedge based pathway, is developing a functional combination of degree of edging and wedge size. We've all had countless students who struggled to maintain a wedge--and without the wedge, they had no edging. At the other end of the spectrum are students who create exaggerated edge angles and an excessively wide wedge, with the result that they can barely move, and if they do, and start making turns, those turns are dysfunctional, abrupt twisting movements that don't deflect the skier in a new direction.

I can see what you're saying about skidded turns being tricky for a new skier, at least in a fully parallel stance. But new skiers don't want to be making linked edge locked turns, because they haven't developed the skills to manage the resulting speed and control turn radius and shape. For all the difficulties wedge based learning can bring with it, in the way of instilling bad habits, it has some clear advantages. One is that a well formed wedge results in a pre-oriented steering angle at the start of a new turn. If the wedge isn't too large, this will start a turn with an appropriate degree of skidding. The skier can then use the inside ski, also on its big toe edge, as an outrigger to maintain a steady rate of skidding through the turn. As the skier's balance improves, the need for an outrigger diminishes, but the skier will continue to make somewhat skidded turns except under the easiest of circumstances.

Ironically, most important skill development is about learning how to control the release.... How to properly release energy is far more important than creating it.

Gravity and turn shape create forces, or energy. The trick is getting a new skier to recognize, accept, and work with those forces. There's no need for the skier to make big muscular movements to CREATE forces. To move into a new turn requires, as you say, a release of the resistance against those forces. But it seems that the instinct many skiers have is to seek to maintain the forces at similar levels throughout the turn cycle. Strangely enough, this can impede both proper shaping and completion of the last part of a turn (which requires embracing a buildup of forces) and efficient transition into a new turn (which requires allowing a rapid diminishing of balancing against those forces).

 

[JESinstr]

As we've often discussed in this forum, getting new skiers centered in their fore-aft balance is the essential first step, without which achieving ski performance won't be possible. Next, if we are following a wedge based pathway, is developing a functional combination of degree of edging and wedge size. We've all had countless students who struggled to maintain a wedge--and without the wedge, they had no edging. At the other end of the spectrum are students who create exaggerated edge angles and an excessively wide wedge, with the result that they can barely move, and if they do, and start making turns, those turns are dysfunctional, abrupt twisting movements that don't deflect the skier in a new direction.

Exaggerated edge angles from an oversized wedge will only happen if the instructor allows it. I agree, you can't go there. This brings up the "Other Balance" that maybe needs more attention at the beginner level and that is "Lateral Balance"

Lateral Balance and edge angles are closely tied through both inclination and angulation. This is where the wedge can become problematic in that the spreading of the legs inclines the COM (in 2 directions) relative to the femurs and as the turn develops added inclination (leaning up hill) in defense of Gravity only makes matters worse.

So angulation now needs to be a teaching focus, allowing the joints of the foot and leg to be the dominant driver of increased and decreased edge angle. I will submit that building edge angles via angulation is easier that releasing them and since the wedge presets edge angle it is important that angulation be the focus vs just separating the legs.

I can see what you're saying about skidded turns being tricky for a new skier, at least in a fully parallel stance. But new skiers don't want to be making linked edge locked turns, because they haven't developed the skills to manage the resulting speed and control turn radius and shape.

Agreed locked edges via a wide wedge is out. However, the implementation of angulation at low speeds should provide for a full, manageable range of edge angle so having a mini progression to teach this set of movements is probably a good idea. Yes? (see below)

For all the difficulties wedge based learning can bring with it, in the way of instilling bad habits, it has some clear advantages. One is that a well formed wedge results in a pre-oriented steering angle at the start of a new turn. If the wedge isn't too large, this will start a turn with an appropriate degree of skidding. The skier can then use the inside ski, also on its big toe edge, as an outrigger to maintain a steady rate of skidding through the turn. As the skier's balance improves, the need for an outrigger diminishes, but the skier will continue to make somewhat skidded turns except under the easiest of circumstances.

IMO, this is where we introduce the advanced skiing concept of Outside Leg Relaxation OLR. There is no reason beginners can't embrace this concept at a rudimentary level. When we teach the student (in a wedge turn) to begin transition by focusing on softening/vertical retraction of the old outside leg, this directive invokes a natural movement of the COM towards the new outside leg. At this time, the skier needs to be able to chew gum and walk at the same time in that softening/shortening and angulation-based flattening of the old outside ski (new inside) needs to happen simultaneously. This is a time in the lesson where patience is key.

Gravity and turn shape create forces, or energy. The trick is getting a new skier to recognize, accept, and work with those forces. There's no need for the skier to make big muscular movements to CREATE forces. To move into a new turn requires, as you say, a release of the resistance against those forces. But it seems that the instinct many skiers have is to seek to maintain the forces at similar levels throughout the turn cycle. Strangely enough, this can impede both proper shaping and completion of the last part of a turn (which requires embracing a buildup of forces) and efficient transition into a new turn (which requires allowing a rapid diminishing of balancing against those forces).

Agree, we are all looking to shape the turn, but centripetal force does not exist unless the ski creates it. As I have stated multiple times, it is a matter of intentional vs unintentional resultants. It is difficult for someone to control a force inadvertently generated because of a desire to redirect the skis vs managing a process that actually creates a turn.
Good Discussion!