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Simplest way to teach newer skiers?

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4ster

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Not always. There are times when the group gels and the collective energy assists in everyone doing great.

We have a max class size of 5 at Snowmass. That is a good number.
I always enjoyed the camaraderie & dynamics of group lessons! Yes, there seemed to often be one who didn’t mesh but usually that could be dealt with.
I can really relate to @LiquidFeet ’s friend with 18 first timers :).

l have taught successful lessons to non-English speakers while barely uttering a word.
 

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.... achieving rotation of the femurs (as well as spreading) is essential for creating a wedge with strong edging. Some students will try to create the rotation mostly in the subtalar joints, and they end up with skis in a wedge but flat. That needs to be corrected. If you instruct students to put their skis higher on edge, that may be enough for many--they'll figure out how to do it. But some need more detailed, explicit direction. Unfortunately, I've seen all too many lessons where the instructor didn't make the correction, and the student was careening out of control.....
This is important ... rotating the thighs toward each other instead of rotating the toes makes a big difference. I've never seen that written or emphasized in any PSIA material, although it may be explicitly described somewhere. This forum provides so much more technical information than the more generalized educational materials made available by PSIA to its members.

More: if a new skier is significantly bowlegged, then rotating the femurs may not be enough. The instructor may need to stuff trail maps into the cuffs so the skier can get those skis up on edge.
 
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Mendieta

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More: if a new skier is significantly bowlegged, then rotating the femurs may not be enough.

Gosh, I can give some well intended feedback on this from the adult learner perspective, as well. I am not bowlegged, but it was hard to get a good edge to really come to a stop on a wedge. I would turn to a pizza shape with fairly flat skis. So, I could shave some speed easily but stopping ... not so much, unless it was SUPER flat. I see a lot of new skiers struggling with that. I found it so much easier and more natural to use corresponding edges as in a parallel turn, which is why the hockey stop was a Godsend. Actually, I had to learn it on my own on day-2. I took a "beginner" group lesson, but the slope was fairly steep for a new skier, ungroomed, the group had all lower intermediates and the instructor was a racing coach. Now, the coach showed us side-slips, first thing, before our first run. Which i really struggled with, but later on my first run I used the same technique to hockey stop intuitively (the good thing of that run was how freaking wide it was). Kudos to Coach! This is why the earlier post on side-slips resonated so much with me, I guess.
 
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Chris V.

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Gosh, I can give some well intended feedback on this from the adult learner perspective, as well. I am not bowlegged, but it was hard to get a good edge to really come to a stop on a wedge. I would turn to a pizza shape with fairly flat skis. So, I could shave some speed easily but stopping ... not so much, unless it was SUPER flat. I see a lot of new skiers struggling with that. I found it so much easier and more natural to use corresponding edges as in a parallel turn, which is why the hockey stop was a Godsend. Actually, I had to learn it on my own on day-2. I took a "beginner" group lesson, but the slope was fairly steep for a new skier, ungroomed, the group had all lower intermediates and the instructor was a racing coach. Now, the coach showed us side-slips, first thing, before our first run. Which i really struggled with, but later on my first run I used the same technique to hockey stop intuitively (the good thing of that run was how freaking wide it was). Kudos to Coach! This is why the earlier post on side-slips resonated so much with me, I guess.
Some students will have trouble engaging one edge or the other due to individual anatomy. Ski gear is designed for the "average" build. Anyone with anatomy deviating substantially from the "average" may need adjustments to boots or skis to get into proper alignment. I wouldn't offer more than the weakest opinion on the likelihood of any such potential issue without being in an actual lesson with the individual. It's just a potential issue that instructors and students alike should keep in mind. If it looks like it could be a problem, turn it over to the experts. If you're struggling to engage an edge, it doesn't necessarily mean that you're not trying properly. (Although it could. :rolleyes:)

Agreed, sideslips are awesome for learning.
 

JESinstr

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Gosh, I can give some well intended feedback on this from the adult learner perspective, as well. I am not bowlegged, but it was hard to get a good edge to really come to a stop on a wedge. I would turn to a pizza shape with fairly flat skis. So, I could shave some speed easily but stopping ... not so much, unless it was SUPER flat. I see a lot of new skiers struggling with that.
Maybe it's time to add some perspective to all the great input from the last bunch of posts.

Although it has and will continue to provide speed control, the modern implementation of the wedge, based on a center balance stance, creates a situation where the skis are actually carving into each other. This requires the student to focus primarily on edge control and pressure management better known as GRIP. It is the skis that are trying to move in a circular path vs redirection (rotary). One key issue that virtually disappears when this process is pursued is the crossing of tips.

Admittedly, exceeding critical velocity will override the ski's carving capability and "Plowing" will occur but that is technically the same as loosing grip when you are in parallel, so slope and surface conditions always needs to be considered.

The key is to get the student comfortable with the above and then move to implementing a softening of one ski over the other thereby creating a turn.

To quote @Nancy Hummel : "I also emphasize that the skills that we work on the first day are the same skills they will use for skiing all kinds of terrain with different blends. I think people have the idea that what you learn on easy terrain suddenly changes when you get to steeper terrain."

Well said.
 
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Chris V.

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[T]he modern implementation of the wedge, based on a center balance stance, creates a situation where the skis are actually carving into each other. This requires the student to focus primarily on edge control and pressure management better known as GRIP. It is the skis that are trying to move in a circular path vs redirection (rotary). One key issue that virtually disappears when this process is pursued is the crossing of tips.

Admittedly, exceeding critical velocity will override the ski's carving capability and "Plowing" will occur....

The key is to get the student comfortable with the above and then move to implementing a softening of one ski over the other thereby creating a turn.
That crossing of tips is a very common difficulty that beginners have. What's needed to avoid this could be described as moderating the skis' degree of grip. (And yes, a difference between the two skis' degree of grip will create a turn.)

To allow skidding (or plowing), while still creating the amount of friction desired for speed control, requires not only creating the appropriate degree of edging, but also a balancing of the forces coming upward and back through the skis into the skier's feet, and the forces exerted by the skier against the skis. Maintaining that balancing of forces requires muscular tension. The skier has to maintain force not only in a forward direction, but also laterally to hold the skis in the wedge. This is a kind of tension that many who are new to the sport aren't accustomed to. It's akin to the tension you would create to do a controlled slide down a scree slope, in hiking boots--but not everyone has experience with hiking over rough country.

Practice at maintaining this tension in a wedge actually translates well to maintaining it in parallel skiing. As does practice at sideslipping.
 

dj61

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Simple: have them watch JB91710 on YouTube and read his posts. Done!
 

markojp

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markojp

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Unless they are friends or a couple who want to learn together.. First time for both and an actual ski resort...

Cr, I have a small hunch Nancy's been teaching enough lessons over the past several seasons that she knows how to handle this scenario, particularly as she does work at an actual ski resort.

:beercheer:
 

crgildart

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Cr, I have a small hunch Nancy's been teaching enough lessons over the past several seasons that she knows how to handle this scenario, particularly as she does work at an actual ski resort.

:beercheer:
I did too for a few years. It was always easier to make sure everyone got some attention and learned something when there were not any never evers than when there was one or more mixed with folks who could manage the easiest greens fine.. It was always in everyone else's interest to get the folks who can't ski at all up and running.. And, that could take the entire hour and a half so the others might just enjoy the show when that happens.. Small groups of vey close (lack of) experience is probably still pretty critical these days for first timers/new skiers.

The scenario of folks where wone can sort of ski but the other can not insisting on being together should probably be handled as a semi private with it communicated in advance that only one of the two will likely get an actual "lesson".
 

Nancy Hummel

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I did too for a few years. It was always easier to make sure everyone got some attention and learned something when there were not any never evers than when there was one or more mixed with folks who could manage the easiest greens fine.. It was always in everyone else's interest to get the folks who can't ski at all up and running.. And, that could take the entire hour and a half so the others might just enjoy the show when that happens.. Small groups of vey close (lack of) experience is probably still pretty critical these days for first timers/new skiers.

The scenario of folks where wone can sort of ski but the other can not insisting on being together should probably be handled as a semi private with it communicated in advance that only one of the two will likely get an actual "lesson".
I have had situations where this has occurred. If people are buying a group lesson, they get a group lesson. If they choose to be in a lower level, that is their choice. Some people understand that and want the experience of being with their friend. Others take the opportunity to go into a different level.

Ski resorts should not put never ever’s in groups with people who have skied. That is a recipe for disaster. It is not fair to never ever who are paying for a lesson.
 

4ster

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It was always easier to make sure everyone got some attention and learned something when there were not any never evers than when there was one or more mixed with folks who could manage the easiest greens fine..
Ski resorts should not put never ever’s in groups with people who have skied. That is a recipe for disaster. It is not fair to never ever who are paying for a lesson.
In 40+ years of teaching skiing I never heard of never evers being mixed in with others who have even a little bit of experience!
Certainly there are first timers with different athleticism, past experiences & coordination. Whenever possible those traits would be recognized & grouped cohesively. If not, the general rule is to teach to the lowest level in the group. A skilled instructor can still make the lesson equally beneficial to the whole group.
 

Disinterested

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I have had people who've skied before who insisted they wanted to go with their friend in a never ever lesson. I've told them how basic it will start out and how it's likely they will find it a bit tedious to watch me explain stuff like how to hold a pole or how to put your boot in a binding. They've insisted anyway. Then an hour in they're like okay I'm gonna go find a higher level group.
 

4ster

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I have had people who've skied before who insisted they wanted to go with their friend in a never ever lesson. I've told them how basic it will start out and how it's likely they will find it a bit tedious to watch me explain stuff like how to hold a pole or how to put your boot in a binding. They've insisted anyway. Then an hour in they're like okay I'm gonna go find a higher level group.
Of course this is the exception & I've experienced the same scenario.
 

JESinstr

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You could call most of the these HK training turns till 1:30, skiing into neutral- where he could actually pivot either direction at that point. I suppose you could call that skiing into release.

The end has very energetic technique where skis are crossing underneath, a retraction, and the com is directed into the new turn.


Ha! Didn't know that I could quote a post from another thread! This is from @James in the "What is a release" thread.

The above HK vid is one of my favorites. Let's take a look at it from a velocity perspective.

IMO his "Skiing into Neutral" ends much earlier than 1:30 at :43. After that, his velocity, along with him initiating use of his poles, indicates his cross under technique has already begun.

During the first 43 seconds however, he skis (redirects), at low velocity to a position perpendicular to the fall line where his COM, skis and Gravity are naturally in sync. You might think the same is true for being in the fall line but the fore and aft relationship between your COM, skis and Gravity is not in sync.

At any rate, the only way for HK to initiate a redirection at this low velocity and relationship to Gravity/Fall Line is to use rotary. This is a great exercise to build rotary skill, but it is the only situation in which rotary first is appropriate IMO.

Which brings me to a conundrum in this thread. If what I said above is true, then based on the low velocity environment in which we teach beginners, shouldn't we be using rotary first which has been the tradition?... Or maybe something else.

At the 30,000 ft level, teaching skiing is about teaching redirection as a means to control velocity. We don't have to teach going straight. Both the Carving Process and Rotary produce redirection of the ski but using different mechanics and rates of redirection. Velocity plays a strategic role, not only in enabling ski function but in fear factor as well.

For sure, most turns are a blend of the carving function of the ski and rotary, but for a beginner to get the most "bang for the buck" out of a lesson, what should the primary focus be? I think we all agree that a dynamically centered balance stance is a prerequisite, so this is about what comes next.

For me, it is all about teaching beginners GRIP which is focusing the carving function of the ski through edging and pressure management first and Rotary as complementary but not an initiator.

What say you?
 

crgildart

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Thread title is "newer skiers". Might be fair that I shouldn't have drifted off with the never evers in that category. As long as everyone can at least manage their gear and turn some there are a lot more options..
 

rustypouch

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I have had people who've skied before who insisted they wanted to go with their friend in a never ever lesson. I've told them how basic it will start out and how it's likely they will find it a bit tedious to watch me explain stuff like how to hold a pole or how to put your boot in a binding. They've insisted anyway. Then an hour in they're like okay I'm gonna go find a higher level group.
Or else they'll try to explain how they do it.
 

LiquidFeet

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I have had people who've skied before who insisted they wanted to go with their friend in a never ever lesson. I've told them how basic it will start out and how it's likely they will find it a bit tedious to watch me explain stuff like how to hold a pole or how to put your boot in a binding. They've insisted anyway. Then an hour in they're like okay I'm gonna go find a higher level group.
^^This.
 
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Chris V.

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If people are buying a group lesson, they get a group lesson. If they choose to be in a lower level, that is their choice. Some people understand that and want the experience of being with their friend.
The one absolute constraint is that all students in a group must be able to keep up with the group, safely, while skiing the same terrain. Which is not to say that the most difficult terrain the whole group can ski is the best terrain choice for the lesson--skills are often learned best by backing off the terrain difficulty. A good instructor should be able to teach something valuable to all in the group, even if the terrain is very easy for some. A good test of instructor skill is, can you teach expert movements on the bunny hill?

If the group is very large, this does start to come off the rails, due to the limited time the instructor has to give individual attention to each student.
 
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Chris V.

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JESinstr, now you've done it. We're deep into the weeds.
At the 30,000 ft level, teaching skiing is about teaching redirection as a means to control velocity. We don't have to teach going straight.
Maybe we do, at the beginner level. As you say, "a dynamically centered balance" is the first skill that a new skier must get decent at, to facilitate everything else. We're generally going to start out teaching this while leaving turning entirely out of the equation, to keep things as simple as possible.

Also, I've seen cases where a new skier tries to make a straight run, but unintentionally veers off in one direction or the other. Going straight actually requires everything to be in a fine balance--edge angles, rotational forces in the two legs, lateral balance, fore-aft position of the two skis relative to each other. Maintaining that seems a very natural thing to be able to do, but it can be a challenge in this unfamiliar slippery environment.
At any rate, the only way for HK to initiate a redirection at this low velocity and relationship to Gravity/Fall Line is to use rotary. This is a great exercise to build rotary skill, but it is the only situation in which rotary first is appropriate IMO.

Which brings me to a conundrum in this thread. If what I said above is true, then based on the low velocity environment in which we teach beginners, shouldn't we be using rotary first which has been the tradition?... Or maybe something else.

0 Both the Carving Process and Rotary produce redirection of the ski but using different mechanics and rates of redirection. Velocity plays a strategic role, not only in enabling ski function but in fear factor as well.

For sure, most turns are a blend of the carving function of the ski and rotary, but for a beginner to get the most "bang for the buck" out of a lesson, what should the primary focus be? ...[T]his is about what comes next.

For me, it is all about teaching beginners GRIP which is focusing the carving function of the ski through edging and pressure management first and Rotary as complementary but not an initiator.
The skills concept, and the five fundamentals, are great ways to organize one's thinking about skiing mechanics. However, in reality, edging, pressure, and rotational movements don't exist in isolation. Whatever you do in applying one of those skills has immediate impacts on performance of the other skills. Elements of movements that can be described as edging, pressure management, or rotation are always present in every effective overall movement that a skier makes to affect ski performance. Accomplishing one element will usually require simultaneous application of the others.

Focusing for the present on rotary movements--the ultimate purpose of all such movements is to alter the angular momentum of the skier. That angular momentum can involve the entirety of the skier's body and equipment, or it can be concentrated to some degree within some part of the "system," e.g. the legs, boots, and skis. Since conservation of angular momentum is an invariable principle of physics, any change in the angular momentum of one physical body necessarily requires a change, in the opposite direction, of the angular momentum of another physical body. To make this happen, there has to be an engagement of those two physical bodies allowing forces to be exerted between them. In skiing, any change in the skier's angular momentum is offset by a change in the angular momentum of mother Earth. For the incredibly massive Earth, it's just a miniscule change in velocity, but it's present.

So a skier seeking to change his angular momentum has to be able to exert forces against, and receive forces from, the snow. That requires some degree of edging and pressure. It can be in one direction or another, depending on the rotational change the skier is accomplishing, and when it's happening.

A skier who isn't engaged with the snow--in the air or on totally flat, frictionless skis--can only create counterrotation within the body. That's not our usual goal.

A skier who achieves no change in angular momentum won't be able to start a new turn.

So I hope people will consider this an accurate description of how creating ski turns always requires some combination of edging, pressure, and rotary movements.

Getting back to what we teach beginners. We don't have to instill all of the above explicitly. The totality of skiing movements in any effective turn is complex. If in teaching we focus on a few key points, the student will generally figure out most of the rest. It's really about getting the student to fire up the appropriate already-existing neural pathways, to create a fine blend of fundamental movement building blocks that by and large the student already knows how to do. That's what DIRT is all about.

Very young children won't be able to ski the same way as adults. They don't walk the same way as adults. Their skeletons and muscles aren't fully developed, but most importantly, they haven't established and gained control of the complex network of neural pathways. Look at how a toddler learning to walk staggers around. It gets better steadily over time, even before bones and muscles have grown much.

There's more than one way to skin a cat! A variety of teaching approaches should and do work. The idea I floated upthread was to have the student focus on continuous smooth changes in foot to foot balance (or weight, or pressure). If the student is blending appropriate degrees of muscular tension and mobility in joints and muscles up the chain, this should produce decent turns. If there's too much of one and too little of the other, there will be issues. A student with the skeleton totally stiff may be able to make direction changes, but not turns. A student lacking muscular tension won't be able to hold an edge.

For a first timer, or for any novice, really, as a prerequisite to this foot to foot balance approach, I would actually want to do at least a couple of things. First, plenty of sidestepping uphill and down, so the student understands how to create edge angles and what the effects are, and to instill muscular tension. Second, walking around in ski boots, then skis, along S-lines, to instill rotational mobility of the femurs (among other things).

Whatever initial approach you use as an instructor, you need to be ready to assess the effect it's having on the individual student, and to take action to address deficiencies. If the student isn't producing or allowing the correct rotational movements, work on that. If the student isn't producing strong edging, work on that. If the student isn't succeeding in regulating pressure in some plane, work on that.

You can't neglect any of these elements.
 
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