PMTS Two Footed Release

[Living Proof]

My .02 on the stationary release, with the caveat that I read and try to use Harb's movements.

The intent of the drill is to learn how to release the skis, start the ski tips sliding downhill, which starts a a completed brushed or skidded turn. Harb states no rotational forces are present in the exercise. The reason the turn works is that the hips are pre-rotated or countered prior to releasing the skis creating a great amount of stored body energy just waiting to be released.
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If there is anticipation or any muscular twisting and the edges are released there will be an affect. If the pole tip is in the snow down the hill from the feet and any pressure is put on that pole, there will be an affect. If you want to sell me on this rotationless release, begin with your hips and shoulders facing the ski tips and don't use a pole plant and let me see what you can do?
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Bud,
I really need to correct and/or expand some of my original post with respect to rotational forces. I fully agree with your thinking that any muscular twisting must affect the skis when the edges are released. Performing the muscular effort to have the hips and upper body facing downhill(ish) will result in rotational forces resulting in the skis to move and match up with what's going on with the upper body, ie rotating in the direction of the turn. I got out my copy of Expert Skier 2 and reread chapter and verse of this specific exercise, plus looked at the accompanying pictures (pages 48 - 51). He writes "(paraphrasing) if I focused on looking at what the legs were doing in some parts of a turn, solely from looking at photo's, I would have to say the legs turned or rotated." This conclusion has been stated many times above. He writes extensively about what differentiates his tipping / upperbody mechanics from traditional technique, I'm not going to argue pro or con... not going to try to condense his movement patterns into a few sentences. It is out there for anyone interested to read in detail.....and, that is a very rare statement in the ski teaching industry. The rotational discussion has been to death in too many other places. I sincerely hope the Pugski forums never become battleground that plagued Epic for many years.

And, as I said in my original post, I hope you and Phil can do the video of the PSIA equivalent and share it on Pugski. I enjoy learning opportunities, not so much interested in arguments.

 

[LiquidFeet]

So far this discussion is civil. People are disagreeing, that's all.

No one is personally attacking anyone else, nor trying to dominate the discussion with endlessly lengthy posts, nor shouting with capital letters and bolded print. No one is trying to be the last one standing.

Despite the topic and past history of discussing it on other forums, this discussion has not yet devolved into an argument.
I'm enjoying reading and posting in it.

 

[Living Proof]

So far this discussion is civil. People are disagreeing, that's all.

No one is personally attacking anyone else, nor trying to dominate the discussion with endlessly lengthy posts, nor shouting with capital letters and bolded print. No one is trying to be the last one standing.

Despite the topic and past history of discussing it on other forums, this discussion has not yet devolved into an argument.
I'm enjoying reading and posting in it.

I read a quote recently attributed to George Smith Patton, the WWII General, who was played by George C Scott in the movie Patton

"If everyone is thinking the same, then nobody is thinking."

Thanks LiquidFeet, I agree.

 

[Josh Matta]

the crazy thing even the PSIA has it wrong the hip socket when on edge is actually rotating the other way but when the skis are flattish the feet(legs, femur) are actually rotating in the hips.

to take away from what we can do on a flat ski is the silliest idea ever.

again

If I am standing across the hill like Diane is here are my outcomes

If I tip my feet slightly while my hips are pointed as far down the hill as possible with out rotating my legs or hips I sideslip, there is no other possible outcome here.

If I tip my feet slightly and rotate my hips like Diane does I end up getting my ski to come around buts it fairly off balance since my hips are rotating with the skis like she does in the video.

If I tip my feet slightly and rotate my femurs I end up balanced and do a pivot slip

IF I keep tipping my feet with no rotational force I high side.

 

[LiquidFeet]

Josh, what does "high side" mean?

 

[Josh Matta]

meaning if your tip your feet and just keep tipping with out and rotation you just tip so far you downhill edges catch and you fall over.

Id it in soft snow yesterday as joke,but its true, tip your feet down the hill with out and rotary when your skis are across the hill and you high side.

 

[Erik Timmerman]

"high side" is that painful fall sideways down the hill.

 

[bud heishman]

High siding occurs when, in a turn, the base of support slows or stops suddenly and the CoM keeps going! Following shortly by a "Mackerel Slap"! A sudden lack of inclination!

 

[Josh Matta]

I am sure I had tons of inclination. I was forcing myself to high side from a stop to prove it could happen.

 

[Erik Timmerman]

I am sure I had tons of inclination. I was forcing myself to high side from a stop to prove it could happen.

Ouch. You must have been pretty bored to be crashing on purpose. I'm pretty sure a thought experiment would have sufficed for that one.

 

[Josh Matta]

it was 12 inches of spring slush

 

[Philpug]

High siding occurs when, in a turn, the base of support slows or stops suddenly and the CoM keeps going! Following shortly by a "Mackerel Slap"! A sudden lack of inclination!

LOL, :Mackerel Slap".

 

[Dan Boisvert]

The tails don't stay put, as in Diana's video. And there's still the upper body unwinding.
How do you get the skis to turn instead of doing a sideslip?

Pull your feet back further/harder. If your weight is centered on the skis and you release, you get a straight sideslip. If your weight is forward (feet pulled back, from the PMTS perspective), the tips will seek the fall line. If your weight is back, your tails will seek the fall line. It's easy to verify this experimentally, if you play with it sometime.

I'm not going to respond to any of the other questions/comments because, to be blunt, it seems like a bunch of people are trying to mimic a PMTS drill without understanding how it works, and then claiming it's not possible to be done as described/demonstrated. With all due respect to you as skiers probably far better than I am, it'd be like me attempting to do a task taken from a video of the PSIA L3 exam, failing at it, and then claiming it's not possible to be done the way you said, just because I couldn't personally do it on my first attempt. Might be worth considering when analyzing PMTS drills, if you haven't actually received coaching in it.

 

[bud heishman]

Pull your feet back further/harder. If your weight is centered on the skis and you release, you get a straight sideslip. If your weight is forward (feet pulled back, from the PMTS perspective), the tips will seek the fall line. If your weight is back, your tails will seek the fall line. It's easy to verify this experimentally, if you play with it sometime.

I'm not going to respond to any of the other questions/comments because, to be blunt, it seems like a bunch of people are trying to mimic a PMTS drill without understanding how it works, and then claiming it's not possible to be done as described/demonstrated. With all due respect to you as skiers probably far better than I am, it'd be like me attempting to do a task taken from a video of the PSIA L3 exam, failing at it, and then claiming it's not possible to be done the way you said, just because I couldn't personally do it on my first attempt. Might be worth considering when analyzing PMTS drills, if you haven't actually received coaching in it.

Dan, I don't believe anyone is saying the PMTS TFR does not work, obviously it does which proves there are multiple ways to get a two footed release. I believe what many are trying to point out is that what is actually happening is NOT what is necessarily advertised or claimed. But then what do I know. Some people's loyalty seems to exceed their willingness to seek understanding.

 

[JSDOS]

Watching her ski's very carefully in the youtube video Liquid Feet posted, especially the initial slow-mo, I see the downhill ski released first as she tips the ski. This is confirmed by the bowleg move of the downhill knee. The uphill ski in contrast, seems to stay on the uphill edge for a brief instant before it follows downhill as it is tipped flat. Looks like the ski's are released in sequence on purpose. It creates a small divergence of the skis, briefly. At least that is what I see. Maybe others can confirm.

If true, wouldn't the sequenced edge release precede and effect all the other moves ?

Logically, if the downhill ski starts down while the uphill ski is briefly stationary (on edge), that sequence could start a rotational movement around a skiers center.
Would holding the uphill ski on it's uphill edge for a instant tend to "hold" the downhill ski in a tighter arc and help it slide into the fall line?

 

[Josh Matta]

The majority of PSIA drill can not be done the way examiners say they are said to be done either Dan.

take the PSIA equivalent Pivot Slips, with out learning about counter or pulling your feet feet back or balance on your downhill ski its basically impossible to do.

So curious if rotation cause stemming/ wedging what is going on here? (known issues in the video are I am vastly misaligned this was prior to my boots being CANTed correctly for me.) BTW I am pretty sure I am getting edge engagement not just forwards but backwards and my hips follow my skis a ton less than the PMTS despite actually going backwards for part of this drill.

 

[bud heishman]

Love this drill!

 

[razie]

Nicely executed

There's quite a bit of "manual" pivoting there, which is normal for pivot slips, but it's to be avoided in the TFR, as opposed to just the simple fore/aft (of a falling leaf) and perhaps the coiling of the upper body... and you're carrying some speed, which also simplifies the turning of the skis, so no "release" to speak of ??

I don't think the rotation is the general of cause stemming, the extension/push off would be.

cheers

 

[Josh Matta]

Curious where does the pushoff happen there?

what I am saying is even with as much counter as possible much more than what the PMTS demonstrators are using, the ski will not turn unless I turn them. I would do a video demo but we do not have any groomed snow right now.

 

[LiquidFeet]

In the TFR from a standstill, the body uncoils above the pelvis. That's the turning force.
The ski tips are kept even from beginning to end, and the skis are held very close together.
Any femur rotation that's happening in the hip socket is intentionally minimized.